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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Casting Problem (Read 13617 times)
hepburnman
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Casting Problem
Mar 14th, 2020 at 9:06pm
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I have a problem with a Saeco 740 mold, casting a 40 cal, 410 gr bullet, where some of the band sections between lube grooves not filling out completely. The mold takes a real long time to come up to temperature but these areas still don't seems to fill out and develop sharp corners. I am casting with 22-1 alloy and at 800 F. I think this is also on just one side of the mold as well. I thought maybe air drafts were causing this but I have reduced or eliminated them.

I'm thinking this may be a case where these areas of the mold are not totally clean? I spray the mold with carburetor cleaner before casting. What else can I try to correct this issue? 

Thanks for the help!
  
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singleshotom
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #1 - Mar 14th, 2020 at 9:13pm
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I’d almost bet money that the temp is reading incorrect. Just try and bump it up to say 825 and see if it’s better! 
Won’t hurt a thing to try it.
Should help!
Sst
  
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Dellet
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #2 - Mar 14th, 2020 at 9:18pm
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You can also try a different cleaner. Most carb cleaners have a certain amount of oil, brake cleaner does not. Acetone is a good choice also.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #3 - Mar 14th, 2020 at 10:40pm
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When all else fails, smoke the mold holding it over a candle flame and / or boil it in water for about 10 minutes. 

There is a slim possibility you may have antimony contamination  (correction: it was ZINC contamination)  in the alloy.  You will never get a filled out bullet if you do.
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2020 at 4:30am by Schuetzenmiester »  

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John Boy
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #4 - Mar 14th, 2020 at 11:04pm
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If the mold and melt both are not at 800 F, your issue is that you are not doing a 10 second pour and then waiting for the spruce puddle to frost. Then cut the the puddle with the spruce plate. I cast the Saeco 640 and 740 at 730F and have zero issues with completely filled out bullets
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #5 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 5:09am
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The mold cannot be at melt temp.  It will take 5 minutes for the bullet to harden. All my mold temps ran between 410-420 F for the .32/.33 to 450 F for the .45s. Weight variance trouble starts at 399 F mold temp  Cry  Not sure about fill out temp, but certainly lower.   Melts ran 750 to the low 800s.  The Lyman thermometer is a fuzz high, so I'm making allowance to approximate  the melt temp, but the mold temps are dead on with my Fluke thermocouple. 

If you don't have a mold temp device, with a preheated mold, you should be up to casting temp within the first 20 bullets at a consistent pace. With the temp listed above my bullets stay within +/- .2 gr.   I usually have to slow down or wait a minute or so once in a while to keep the mold from getting too hot  to hold the weigh accuracy. 
  

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JLouis
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #6 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 9:38am
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If possibly the mould is still not free of protective oils after being cleaned. I use a handheld propane torch and move it back and forth across the faces of the blocks. It will start sweating out oils that you can clearly see that are now being burnt off. When it stops the mould is now clean. Use a medium flame you just want to burn off the contaminations you do not want to get the blocks overly hot but more like your casting temps.
If that doesn't fix the issue it could be sprue plate adjustment or you might need to create a very slight beveled channel across the top of the mould. This to let any trapped air out from under the sprue plate to now let the bases fully fill out. It doesn't take much of a bevel as is shown on the block below.

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40_Rod
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #7 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 10:02am
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One other thing you can try
You may not be getting enough pressure. If you are ladle pouring tru opening up the hole in your dipper 1 or 2 drill sizes.

40 Rod
  
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beltfed
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #8 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 10:39am
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BEST cleaner, by far that I have found for molds is Acetone.
Leaves absolutely no residue. Can be picked up at hardware stores /Lowes, Home Depot, Menards, Fleet Farm.
AND, DO NOT oil your molds between uses. I have stored my clean, dry molds for the last 60plus years in Ammo Cans with GOOD rubber lid seal , and with a couple pieces of VPI paper (VaporPhase(Rust)Inhibeter. NO RUST over the years on any molds. I can take a mold out and Immediately go to casting w/o having to de-oil/clean each time.
Usual best method to cast with ladle is to tip the
mold to 90 degrees. place the full ladle on to the sprue hole
and then tip them both up at a modest speed.
usually done with both ladle and mold facing away from you.
BUT, I have a couple molds that want to have the ladle
positioned such that the spout on it comes across at the 
"front of the mold/at parting line, with the mold tipped
forward rather than sideways. This has stopped 
just the problem the hepburnman has described- of poor fillout on one side.
beltfed/arnie
  
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John Boy
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #9 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 11:53am
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The best mold cleaner I have used is Micro 90, 5% solution of the concentrate
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Use a business name and order a free sample
Heat the mold with hot tap water - scrub wit a tooth brush - rinse and heat to temperature. Cast with a bare mold, no coatings
  
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CW
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #10 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 12:51pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Mar 14th, 2020 at 10:40pm:

There is a slim possibility you may have antimony contamination in the alloy.  You will never get a filled out bullet if you do.


That is an interesting comment. Are you saying cast bullets using Pb, Sn, and Sb will not completely fill out?
  
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beltfed
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 3:53pm
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CW, Schuetzenmeister,
Indeed, It has been said that Metallurgically it is Not so Good if tin is in a greater percentage than Antimony in a three component alloy.
So, perhaps if antimony is present in a low "impurity" 
amount in a basically Lead/tin alloy, it may interfere with 
fillout.
OTOH, in proper amounts, With Antimony in larger amounts
and in equal or greater amount than Tin, we get perfect fillout:
like for example one of the Best alloys for Excellent bullet
fillout,is namely Linotype- Designed for that purpose of perfect fillout of tiny type set. It is 82%lead/12%Antimony/6% tin.
Of course Lino is too hard (at least Traditionally) for making
Schuetzen bullets , especially for breech seating.
A prolific Engineer and experimenter in cast bullets, 
Dan Theodore came up with a very interesting alloy
that works very similar to Traditional Lead/tin alloys:
97%Lead/1.5%Antimony/1.5% tin.  Very close to 16+1
which is very popular for some of the BPCR bullets that have elongated noses-Elliptical, "Money",etc.
beltfed/arnie


  
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bnice
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 7:46pm
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if it is actually just one side, I would lean toward contamination all other factors you would think would be on all surfaces?
  
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CW
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #13 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 9:07pm
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hepburnman wrote on Mar 14th, 2020 at 9:06pm:
I think this is also on just one side of the mold as well. I thought maybe air drafts were causing this but I have reduced or eliminated them.
Thanks for the help!


I have had this problem. I can often tease a troublesome mold into working but I remember twice when working with new to me (used) molds that nothing worked. The problem was just as you described and turning up the pot heat nor slowing down the ladle pour failed. Always, the one side had slightly rounded corners and was not filled to nice sharp corners.

As a test I awkwardly switched hands and poured turning (rotating) the other direction and the bullets were filled on the offending side. I concluded the liquid metal was swirling into the mold in some way that was hindering the air escape on the unfilled side.

If cleaning the mold has already failed, check the vents. 
Then, play with a hot(er) mold. I place the mold blocks on the pot edge at the start of a cold pot, handles on a side board the height of the pot so the mold stays put and level. Cover it and the top of the pot with a square of aluminum foil. Stick the ladle in there too while you are at it.  45 minutes later, if your metal is truly 725 to 750F, I bet it pours good bullets.  Mine will often pour a good bullet from the very first one out of the mold. 
That is my best guess with out being there.  

If you give it a try I would like to hear how it goes.
-CW
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2020 at 9:12pm by CW »  
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oldman46
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Re: Casting Problem
Reply #14 - Mar 15th, 2020 at 11:09pm
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If you have a harbor Freight near you they have an inexpensive thermal heat gun that will tell you the temp of your alloy. I'm getting one next time I go near one in town. That should help guage accurately your alloy temps. I've also opened the holes on my casting ladle and sprue plate to cast long for the caliber bullets. Frank
  
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