This RB was made by a Gunsmith by the name of C.L.Witte 
After his name is says Gunsmith of the King.......GEWEERNAKER VAN Z.M. DEN Koning

On the bottom of the barrel is 10.6 leading me to believe is was once a 10.66 or 10.75 x 57 or a 42 Russian chambering.

I am trying to restore this rifle to firing condition after is was decommisioned by the Swedish Government. It will be quite an undertaking to restore this old rifle but for some reason I feel it is a special gun since it is reported to have been owned by a famous Swedish writer. It was purchased in Sweden by a importer friend of mine and it still has the tape on the butt plate with the previous owners name on it.....Evert Taube

Can anyone tell me anything about this Dutch Gunmaker in the Netherlands??

I'd enjoy seeing pictures of it! 
Is this a octagon barreled sporting rifle, or what configuration is it?

I think certain guns that speak to us should be saved, and gently brought back to as good as we can get them, without a full restoration. (if possible)
I've got a few with provenance to people who might not be famous all over, but have significant history that made me decide to not part them out, and instead bring them back as well as I could without destroying their history and looks.

I have a Rolling Block I bought at the Reno gun show to use the action and parts. It's an octagon top #1 sporting rifle, but in rare .22 rimfire. I figured it was so Bubba'd I'd keep it as a .22 rimfire, but toss the barrel, and wood, and put new barrel and wood on it.
It had the front dovetail cut by hand with a dull file and they made it 3/4" wide! Not sure why, but then they cut another correct 3/8" dovetail in the bottom of the first 3/4" dovetail! And since one buggered wasn't enough, they messed up the rear dovetail also, and just left it blank.
Then I guess they wanted a tang sight, but didn't know what spacing to do. So they drilled and tapped 5 holes in the top tang, and made a mess of that.
And the topper was the stocks. They used a file to cut large checkering in the buttplate, but somehow actually got it even spaced. Problem was the spacing is about 1/4", and not in a diamond pattern like checkering is. Instead in a tic tac toe pattern straight across vertically and horizontally! The stocks also got amateur checkering, and then had big chips missing from the forearm and buttstock.
It looked pretty bad, but surprisingly had a very nice bore! I began taking it apart and found a name stamped under the forearm on the bottom barrel flat. It read, "E.C. Hackett" and I thought the name was familiar? The person I bought it from happened to be from Oregon also, but had mostly military guns, and wanted this one gone badly. I tried a Google search of the name and found EC Hackett was an Oregon Pioneer born about 10 miles away in 1852 to early settlers. He went on to become one of the first deputies in Oregon City, which was the state capitol back then. Later he became mayor of Oregon City, and finally County Recorder until he died in his 80's.
So I went from salvage mode, to saving mode. I repaired all the barrel dovetails with tight fitting plugs, and then milled in new proper dovetails. I matched the rust blue, and faded it in to blend. I filled all except two of the tang sight holes, and blended them in also. Then installed a tang sight to cover the repaired holes. I fixed all the broken wood, and touched up the checkering. I left the crude checkering on the buttplate as I saw no good way to correct it. 
It's a very good shooter, and it looks 100% better than it did. But it doesn't look restored, it looks like a survivor. I also got hundreds of pages of documentation on EC Hackett from the Oregon City Historical Society that I keep with his gun.

Rebel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 8:05am:


Remember it's only an addiction if you are trying to quit!  for this- I'm not a quitter!
And the stupid bowl... I've been doing my part since the kneeling incidents to help that organization go bankrupt but it's not working.
looks like the crosshatch in the gravel driveway needs re-done today anyway -too busy to watch
Greg

marlinguy wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2020 at 10:19am:


Glad to hear I'm not the only one!

Regards,
Joe

When I was running BP matches at TR&R, one of my one day 200 yard matches was on Super Bowl Sunday.  My ride called it the "Stupid Sunday Match"   

I guess you all missed the show yesterday. It was far more patriotic than you imagine. The players were sometimes seen singing along with the anthem. Coaches too. Plus, I got to see JLo stut her georgeous legs and shake her delightful fanny at halftime. 
And, it was one helluva good football game too. Sorry your tunnel vision cause you to miss so much. Carry on.

KC came from behind (again) in an exiting finish.

That is a VERY impressive list of famous Swedes!! Thanks for posting! Jan G. has been my favoriate author for most of my life. We easily have more Swedish language books by him than any other Swedish author, thanks in no small part to his several 10-volume series.
Niklas

craigster wrote on Feb 1^st, 2020 at 6:18pm:

It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to paint it!!
Did you ever hear of this shop/importer?
Aaron

A very nice rifle indeed and I have to agree Aaron. A used rifle showing use, not abuse is a very self rewarding firearm to own. Sometimes we tend to forget it is not just a rifle of the times. But a very vital tool possibly to help put food on the table, protect their livestock, their home and might have even been handed down.

I'm not sure, I haven't received it yet. I'm thinking it might be 9.3 x 57R as the auction listed it at "about 357 bore" .  Many others seem to be in this caliber, so we'll see when it arrives. I don't cast, so I'll probably have to buy bullets, I can deal with the brass.

Aaron

Rebel, I see that your serial number is lower than Vall's and his bore is oversized and he is successfully shooting 38-55 bullets in shortened (.1 inch I think) 38-55 brass. A chamber cast is in order. Both mine are much later and are definitely 9.3x57R(360) with .367 barrels.

Glad you bought it! I was tempted to buy it so I'd have a half stock to go with my full stock 33A. Whether it's a 9.3 or a 9.5 it will still be easy to load for, and they're great shooters. The folks at Husqvarna really knew how to build Rolling Blocks as good as Remington. 
You'll love the feel and weight of this gun when you get it in your hands! They're just graceful, and petite!

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I once met a guy who had bought a DEWATed M3. Turned out it just had a lead plug in the barrel that knocked right out.

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Any markings on the top tang?

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So if this barrel and action were produced in Belgium then that would make sense as that is what the proof marks suggest. I had read that Belgium proofed barrels and such but I did not realize they sold Belgian made guns to other gunsmiths in other countries.

Is there anyone who can verify the gunsmith as Belgian or Dutch? 
I originally found the same auction for the pistols made by C.L. Witte, wasn't that auction listed as a Dutch gunsmith??

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I think it qualifies as a long rifle.

In MHO this rifle is in fairly good external condition. Providing that the breach block can be restored at a reasonable cost, would you head down the road of a full metal restoration, as in case hardening the entire receiver? If the block can be freed of its brass it will have to be annealed and re-case hardened to be safe with black powder, and even that makes me cringe a bit when I think of my face behind that block.

Are there any numbers on the top of the buttplate?
Here's some more cartridge info: "the original case was 45 mm long and had 3 grams of BP and a bullet of 22,8 grams this combination was called cartridge no 9, later they rechambered to no 8 cartridge same as for the beaumont rifle case 51 mm 4,25 grams op BP and bullet 25 grams"
and maybe a source of info: "Further you can try to make contact with the conservator of the Dutch Army museum M. Willemsen, he has written several times on the Dutch Remington carbines in English."
The big question for me is why would a gunmaker "to the King" be messing with a common military rifle? Maybe this M. Willemsen has a clue.

Spoke with my importer buddy just a bit ago and he gave me some additional information on the rifle. He purchased this rifle in Sweden along with several other guns from the Evert Taube estate. The gun shop he bought them from had been keeping them in a vault until the estate could be settled. I guess this is why the tape was on the butt plate. This was the only gun my friend held on to for the last 20 years thinking he would fix it one day.

I agree with you on trying to keep the rifle as original as possible. The problem is that the block was heated very hot to get the bronze to flow into it. The screw is frozen in place and the firing pin retract device has been filled off flush. In the pictures you can see the blue color from the heating process. 

The block will have to be annealed and reheat treated to be safe to shoot.

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It looks so very much externally to the Nagant made "Papal Rifle" that I tend to believe it was made entirely by Nagant in that very form and sold through C.L.Witte, who appears to be a famous arms maker and seller from Netherland.
(of course, the 10.6 (mm) proves it is NOT a Papal rifle  , and the rear sight is typically Dutch. It possibly was made on order by Nagant for Witte in the Dutch style, and caliber: one of the 11mm Beaumont)

Freebird, the barrel is serialed to the buttplate and Nagant had a contract to build cavalry/engineer carbines for the Netherlands. At what point a short rifle becomes a carbine or a carbine a short rifle I have no idea.

Thanks for all the comments guys. It is a interesting rifle. Attached you will see a few other RB's I have. as a reference the Dutch rifle is only a little shorter than the Garl Gustaf military example. The two Husqvarna's are in the 12mm and a 500/450 No.1 BPE
The model 33 is in 9.3x57r/360

Not sure if I mentioned it but the Dutch rifle is completely matching. The block is numbered 104 as well.

Not really sure what happened to the right side of the receiver. A lot of times these rifles were just thrown in a big box with little packing when that were imported into the states.

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44985

Yes I guess it is in there backwards. I had not really noticed until now. I have not shot it yet. I have been working up brass for the 500/450 No.1 BPE 

I just noticed on the bottom of the Model 33 barrel it has 8.5.........but the groove depth at the muzzle measures .360-.362

I bought all my rollers from a good friend who imported a bunch of them in the past. I talked him out of the 500/450 No.1.

Thanks

That Carl Gustav is the rifle I used to do all the load development and testing for the 8x58RD over on Gunboards a few years back.

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That Brevet Nagant stamp was a bit unexpected, but only so because Leon Nagant was well known in Sweden for the Swedish Nagant 7.5 mm Revolver m/1887 ( (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)). Did not know about Nagant's Remington license to build rollers.

What were the improvements Nagants made to Remington rollers?

Thanks,
SKG

svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Feb 16^th, 2020 at 2:57pm:


If you go back a few pages, you will notice a "Brevet Remington" and a number on the left side of the receiver. This is  the royalties number applied to every Nagant made Rolling Block to pay back Remington on their patent right.
One of the improvement was the breech. (hence the patent mark here). It may look similar to the late Danish and Swedish ones, but the firing ping indicator was specific to Nagant made arms (and patented).

A friend of mine has documented other differences between Nagant made RB (specifically a Papal state model) and Remington made arms (Egyptian, greek) and swedish (Husqvarna 1867), but I could not cite them from memory. (apart the fact that the quality of realisation and the quality or treatment of the steel employed by Nagant appeard vastly superior)

freebird wrote on Feb 17^th, 2020 at 4:31am:


If you go back a few pages, you will notice a "Brevet Remington" and a number on the left side of the receiver. This is  the royalties number applied to every Nagant made Rolling Block to pay back Remington on their patent right.
One of the improvement was the breech. (hence the patent mark here). It may look similar to the late Danish and Swedish ones, but the firing ping indicator was specific to Nagant made arms (and patented).

A friend of mine has documented other differences between Nagant made RB (specifically a Papal state model) and Remington made arms (Egyptian, greek) and swedish (Husqvarna 1867), but I could not cite them from memory. (apart the fact that the quality of realisation and the quality or treatment of the steel employed by Nagant appeard vastly superior)

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Is this improvement "It may look similar to the late Danish and Swedish ones, but the firing pin indicator was specific to Nagant made arms (and patented)." the firing pin retracter that is on the 8X58RD chambered Swedish rollers? Looks like same to me in posted pics.

Your sentence "(apart the fact that the quality of realisation and the quality or treatment of the steel employed by Nagant appeard vastly superior)" causes me to ask if Nagant improvements to steel were incorporated into the 8X58RD Swedish rollers?

Thanks!
SKG

In English-language info about Swedish rollers 67/89 there is little apparently reliable information about the re heat treated process. There are even assertations that the re heat treating "crystallized" the steel so much the receivers were subject to catastrophic failure -- something that appears not to have been happening. Instead, these 8X58RD chambered rollers seem quite adequate to handle the lower chamber pressures that military and commercial ammo, loaded specifically for these rifles (NOT the higher pressure ammo for Norsk Krag  & Dansk Steyer turnbolts). Smokepole50 and others in USA have provided very useful pressure test data for Norma 8X58RD ammo and some very useful pressure data for a few handloads -- all published in GunBoards webbsite for Swedish Military Firearms.

Years ago I contacted Swedish Royal Library in Stockholm in a search for documents reporting acceptance and other qualifying testing of these 8X58RD rollers. A nice report on the acceptance field testing was found but nothing more. 

SO, now that you have brought Leon Nagant's extensive involvement with Swedish rollers to our attention, we want to know everything that he contributed to their development. 

Thank you for your rather unexpected contributions!!
SKG

For those of you who owns G. Layman book on military RB, the Nagant patent breech (firing pin retractor) is visible p96 on a Nagant made Dutch Carbine or rifle.
It is significantly different from the one on 67/89 Swedish gun.

As the Nagant RB guns were made circa 1872, it gives an idea of how advanced were the Nagant brothers on the other european Rolling Block licencees (namely Swede/Norway and Denmark).
This also help dating (sort of  ) Smokepole's gun.

Thank you all for the great comments guys. I would like to ask for your opinion on how common this rifle would be if you wanted to buy one.

I have some decisions to make in regards to this restoration project and I need you opinions because it is not a inexpensive journey. As it turns out, all the brand new old stock Swedish RB block parts I have will not fit this Nagant block. Maybe the firing pin will fit. So that means they will all have to be hand made.Add to the above costs the fact that the barrel will most likely have to be bored and relined and the cost just keeps rising.

I have looked around on the net trying to find a Nagant made rifle such as this being sold to have a reference on what my rifle might be worth once repaired/restored. The only reference I have been able  to find was a auction in Germany last fall but the auctionier did not list the sale price. It was a nice looking rifle but it had a different rear sight. 

What would you gentelmen consider the rough value of a rifle such as this restored??? Not refinished, just made whole again.
I know one persons perspective will not match that of another and would not ask this question of you if I did not believe that the restoration cost might very well exceed the value of such a rifle repaired.

Another question to consider if I continue down this road is caliber. I don't believe the barrel is big enough to change the caliber to .45 so something near 10.6 will most likely be the flavor of the day. Should I try and return it to its original cartridge chambering if that can be determined or turn it into something more common like 43 Spanish???

I like opinions so please give me yours to help me make some decisions on this 150 year old rifle restoration/repair.

Those are exactly my concerns. The chances of finding original replacement parts for the block would be like winning the lottery.
Maybe if I lived in Europe I could possibly find a junk rifle to rob parts from but even then the chances of removing such parts from a junk RB block without damaging them would not be good.

So it seems like I have no good options....

I bought one of those Papal Rolling Blocks about 10 years ago for $175 to get the action. It had been totally reblued and had perfect wood, but collector value was ruined. A friend saw it before I could strip it down, and begged me to sell it to him. So it went away to him as a shooter. He loves the accuracy, and has actually taken deer and antelope with it.

marlinguy wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2020 at 4:47pm:


Did it have the Tiara (the keys of Vatican) on top of the action?

Do you remember if it was a Westley Richards made one or a Nagant?

I was pulling the stock off the action to prepare for barrel removal and noticed this serial number stamped into the under side of the tang. Does this throw this receiver into a military range group??

to the best of my knowledge, there is no record of RB serial numbers from Nagant.
However, as this is clearly belgian made (Liege proof marks on all parts) and a Nagant model, it is almost certainly a civilian version made on behalf of C. L. Witte who marked the gun with his name to sell it.
The number (01048) relates to all the other parts (partial number 104), so the gun seems "matching numbers". 
Being able to deterine the exact caliber would be interesting (but quite difficult in its current state)

I am thinking it may be chambered in this cartridge....

.42 Berdan and .43 Spanish are really very similar.
"almost" interchangeable. (Berdan goes into Spanish, not always the other way round.)
Could also be 11mm Beaumont, but the rim diameter would tell you which.

43 SPanish was very frequent in Belgium made RB because many were intended for South America (where the 43 Spanish was king for a long time).
I doubt they would have chambered in either Berdan or Spanish for a gun meant to be sold in Netherland, but...