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Bulseyetom
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Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Jan 19th, 2020 at 12:01pm
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I have a Hepburn with a newer .400/.408 barrel chambered in 40-70 SS.  This rifle is shooting lights out with fixed grease groove bullets and I am thinking of trying my luck with paper patched as a traditional hunting bullet.  Gunbroker has several patched bullets at auction and I was wondering if either would work or whether I need to get some bullets from BACO and patch them myself as they have .396 bullets offered.  One of the patched bullets on GB is .404 and the other is .408.  Will these work with smokeless? Will these work with black?  Will the BACO bullet work?  If any show promise I will probably buy a mould.  Thanks for any help.  Tom
  
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RSW
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #1 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 12:24pm
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Please don't take my comments as trying to rain on your parade. Switching from GG to PP bullets is usually not as simple as just loading with PP instead of GG. As your questions are in the context of hunting, you may want a bore diameter patched bullet if you are shooting black powder so you can chamber a second round in case you need a followup shot on game. Also, consider using a lube wad in your wad stack so that second shot has the barrel fouling softened by the lube of the first shot. Make sense?
Now if you want to shoot PP with smokeless, I have no advice to offer.
  

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SSShooter
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #2 - Jan 19th, 2020 at 1:04pm
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Not familiar with anyone shooting PP with smokeless, but........ never say never.

There are a few good threads on PP loading/shooting on the Shiloh Sharps forum where many are reporting good results. So much so that a few of the PP shooters have become contenders at various BPCR & BPTR matches. Also, BACo and SPG sell a basic PP loading book that is a good primer for same. I'm going to give PP a try this year and have just finished a mold for 38cal PP bullet. Will take a while to develop, so we'll see.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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blackpowder
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2020 at 7:09pm
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40-70 Ballard, PP 370 gr bullet at 100 yards.
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #4 - Feb 16th, 2020 at 7:17pm
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As the old tv show said, " That's what I'm talking about!"  What diameter did you patch to?  I have some patched to .404 that slide into my barrel with thumb pressure behind a plugged case that I am going to try breech seated with a duplex load of Re-7 and Swiss 1 1/2 next time out to the range.  If they work breech seated I am going to try fixed but barely seated just enough so the bullet won't fall out in my shirt pocket.  Only eight more months to hunting season, I better get hot!   Grin  Tom
  
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CptCurl
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 7:32am
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I am loading the .40-70 SBN with paper patched bullets for an original Rigby single shot stalking rifle chambered in that caliber.

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My rifle has a groove diameter of .411".  For these hunting rounds I am patching to groove diameter.  I know that is anathema to most shooters here, but it was British express rifle protocol.  It also seems to be correct for this rifle.

My load is:
* 70 gr. of Olde Eynsford 2F, the powder compressed just below the base of the neck;
* a beeswax foundation wad set on the powder;
* a 3/16" thick grease cookie;
* 330 gr. swaged .399" paper patched bullet; I source this bullet from BACO.  This is the diameter of the un-patched bullet.  With patch it is up to groove diameter.
* WLR primer;
* 2.925" OAL.

Take note of the lack of cardboard or plastic wads.  My bullet is seated right on the grease cookie.  There's a story as to how I arrived at that practice.  The grease is segregated from the powder charge only by the beeswax foundation wad.  That's enough, and it lets the flame disburse lube through your barrel.  My lube cookie is a homemade recipe that seems to duplicate SPG.  A cookie made from SPG should work as well.

This load is accurate and does not foul the barrel. It chronographs at 1521 fps.

By "accurate" I am referring to good hunting accuracy.  This load will consistently group at slightly over 2" at 100 yards with the open express sights - no blowing, no wiping, shot after shot.

I can shoot 20+ rounds without accumulation of fouling.  The 21st cartridge chambers just as easily as the first.  I am confident I could shoot 100 rounds without blowing or wiping, and without any loss of accuracy.

There's a long thread about this rifle on another forum with lots of photos and a long dissertation about how I finally figured out what cartridge it was chambered for.  Some people might find that thread interesting.  Be sure to read the whole thread, as it spans a number of years.  Final load development is way down in it.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)  It's worth looking just to see detailed photos of this extremely rare and exquisite rifle.

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I would think a similar loading protocol would make good hunting ammunition for your .40-70 SS.

Curl
  
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Kurt_701
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #6 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 7:36am
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Nice rifle.
  

M-14 3rd Battalion 27th Marines RVN 68'69'
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #7 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 9:19am
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Does your Rigby have an angled firing pin or does it use a transfer mechanism of some sort. Whatever, it is a great looking rifle.

See it has a nice, long upper tang. Easy to d&t for a good MVA or other rear sight with a Hadley eye-cup. Could also d&t the barrel for a scope. Am sure that neither would affect its value.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2020 at 10:35am by SSShooter »  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #8 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 10:07am
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You say you compress just below the case neck but loaded rounds seem to be seated rather deeply.   Is there a lot of freebore in the Rigby.
  
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #9 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 10:44am
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Please excuse me whilst I wipe the drool from my screen.
  
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CptCurl
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #10 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 3:46pm
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SSShooter wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 9:19am:
Does your Rigby have an angled firing pin or does it use a transfer mechanism of some sort. Whatever, it is a great looking rifle.

See it has a nice, long upper tang. Easy to d&t for a good MVA or other rear sight with a Hadley eye-cup. Could also d&t the barrel for a scope. Am sure that neither would affect its value.  Roll Eyes



The firing pin is angled.  It has no transfer mechanism.  Actually, the angle is not very severe.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

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Yellowhouse wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 10:07am:
You say you compress just below the case neck but loaded rounds seem to be seated rather deeply.   Is there a lot of freebore in the Rigby.



The bullets you see loaded in my first photo are just shy of the lands.  There is no freebore.  Here's a look at my chamber cast:

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I compress the charge so that the beeswax foundation wad meets the bottom of the neck.  My grease cookie is right on top of the beeswax wad.  My bullet seats exactly on the grease cookie.  







Kurt_701 wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 7:36am:
Nice rifle.



oneatatime wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 10:44am:
Please excuse me whilst I wipe the drool from my screen.





Thanks for the kind compliments.  It is quite an unusual and outstanding rifle built to the highest standards.  I am quite fortunate to own it.

The people at Rigby have asked to buy it.  I'm not selling!  They advised me it was completed in 1880.

Curl
  
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #11 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 3:57pm
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Yes, it would be quite the candidate for a Nightforce 4-14 50mm whizbang sniper scope.  Grin

Curl
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #12 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 5:40pm
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CptCurl wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 3:46pm:
The firing pin is angled.  It has no transfer mechanism.  Actually, the angle is not very severe.
The people at Rigby have asked to buy it.  I'm not selling!  They advised me it was completed in 1880.
Curl

Thanks. Easy to understand why they would want it back. That is pretty much the nicest exposed hammer rifle I've seen.

Do you have any more details? Barrel length, twist, trigger weight, etc. Not that it makes any difference, just inquiring minds and all that. Looks like a great rifle for an article in the BPCN. If you don't mind......... how did you come onto it? Something you were looking for or just a lucky find? Can understand why you are holding on to it.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #13 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 7:57pm
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SSShooter wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 5:40pm:


. . .

Do you have any more details? Barrel length, twist, trigger weight, etc. Not that it makes any difference, just inquiring minds and all that. Looks like a great rifle for an article in the BPCN. If you don't mind......... how did you come onto it? Something you were looking for or just a lucky find? Can understand why you are holding on to it.



The rifle does have a story behind it.

I'm not trying to direct traffic away from this forum, but the long story about this rifle is set out in my posts in the thread linked above, which I have also linked immediately below:

CptCurl wrote on Feb 17th, 2020 at 7:32am:

. . .

There's a long thread about this rifle on another forum with lots of photos and a long dissertation about how I finally figured out what cartridge it was chambered for.  Some people might find that thread interesting.  Be sure to read the whole thread, as it spans a number of years.  Final load development is way down in it.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)  It's worth looking just to see detailed photos of this extremely rare and exquisite rifle.



That was a thread I wrote back in 2012, but it continued into 2018 (mainly because I got frustrated with the rear sight having been monkeyed with).  In the end, a new rear sight made by a master put everything right.

The article is already written.  It would be quite a bit of work to try to transfer all that information over to this forum; thus the link.

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Curl
  
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Re: Paper patched bullet question for 40-70 SS
Reply #14 - Feb 17th, 2020 at 9:14pm
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Good thread and most entertaining. Thanks.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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