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Pope barrel markings
Nov 23rd, 2019 at 1:00am
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My question is there significance or a pattern to barrels marked just H M Pope. Stevens-Pope, Hartford and Jersey City being obvious.



  
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marlinguy
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #1 - Nov 23rd, 2019 at 11:30am
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Not that I know of. Even during the Hartford and Jersey City era of Pope's barrels there were changes in how his rollstamps were done. I'd assume the changes were because a rollstamp broke or wore out and in replacing it he simply changed how he wanted the stamp to read.
If I recall correctly there were 3 different rollstamps used during the Hartford era alone? And I could guess that a stamp reading just "H M POPE" was possibly used while a more complete stamp was being repaired, or a stamp he had for molds or other tools and used for whatever reason?
There are also Pope barrels with no rollstamp on them, and not sure why. It could be because they were sent out unfinished from his shop, and later polished and finished. Or it could be the buyer just asked for an unmarked barrel?
There is one other possibility that should not be overlooked too. Is there any question about this barrel's authenticity as a real Pope barrel? Does it have the correct rifling, and twist rate, etc. on the bottom of the barrel?
  

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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #2 - Nov 23rd, 2019 at 3:39pm
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Vall there is another issue that some times comes up. A close friend who was chasing these things for many years once mentioned to me when this kind of question came up said there were Pope fakes. They looked good and were made in many forms. but did not shoot like a Pope. Left hand twist, False Muzzles, and stamped H.M. Pope. I bought a 33-40 at Auction that had all the earmarks but no stamp at all. It is a full Helm style Schuetzen, Left hand Twist
But it does not shoot very well. There were two in the Auction the one I got and another that was marked H.M. Pope. The other was Bought by a close friend of mine. Both were marked 32-40 but turned out to be .33 caliber and neither shot well. I believe they were both from one of Warren Greatbatch's stuff. The price was such that they still were a good buy at the time. All the bells and whistles were there. Good woods, Schuetzen configuration, Double Sets, Palm Rest, Scope Blocks and Iron Sights. I put some serious time into mine but was never satisfied with it. May some time consider selling it but hate to string someone else along. May in some time if I find a barrel that interest's me Re-barrel it. Not much else we can say because we really do not know the source of these types of Rifles. FITZ. OLD TUCK Sad
P.S. by the way they both even have Pope style Rifling. FITZ.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #3 - Nov 24th, 2019 at 5:29pm
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Fitz, I've often heard tell of Pope fakes, but didn't know anyone had gone to such extremes to fake them so well!
  

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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #4 - Nov 25th, 2019 at 3:29am
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Actually, Fitz, I can't imagine that anyone would go to such extremes.  I also find it hard to believe Greatbach was fooled.  Third, I would point out that in Pope's 1899 catalog, he gives three prices for his barrels: untested; tested and guaranteed to have put 10 shots in at least a 3" circle at 200 yards from his machine rest; and the same except the group guaranteed not to exceed 2-1/2".

Therefore, just to be contentious. since your write-up implies that neither rifle had it's "Pope-supplied" mould, and while I'm willing to believe that you did indeed put in "serious time" with your rifle, just what exactly does "not shoot like a Pope" and "didn't shoot well" mean?

Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Nov 25th, 2019 at 3:42am by Bill Lawrence »  
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #5 - Nov 25th, 2019 at 9:56pm
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Bill, in  Pope machine rest shooting Bullets from a Pope Mold. (Not a Copy)
at 200 yds, the best we got was 5" groups. I tried all the standard Loads of 4759 and some Black Powder both straight and Duplex. Never got any thing I was satisfied. Now I do own two Hartford Pope rifles one a 38-55 and the other a 33-40. never had a problem making them shoot. I did NOT shoot from the Bench because I have never enjoyed it, I had the owner of the original Pope Machine rest do the testing because he enjoyed it. As to why
anyone would take the time? $$$$$$ Pope rifles have had a colorfull history
and have commanded significant prices. Now at this time there are some poor prices being reported. And some are not even good copies. At a recent auction one was described as a Pope with the H.M. pope stamp but with Right hand twist rifling. I do feel that in today's world of superior Machining equipment we should be able to equal Pope and the other great makers efforts. In my mind the real answer is a straight hole. Pope and the others learned how to drill a straight hole and then reamed and Rifled them with care. Well that's all I have to say. But, if I find a good condition Factory Barrel in the future that I wish to try I will not hesitate to take mine apart and re barrel it and sell the wanna be Pope to some one who cannot live with out it. FITZ, OLD TUCK. Wink
I do not believe Greatbach could be fooled either. But with his Money I believe he could have been capable of buying just about anything he was interested in. FITZ.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #6 - Nov 25th, 2019 at 11:49pm
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Thanks, Fitz, those details lay the issue to rest for me.

I had, by the way, asked not to cast any any doubts or slurs at you.  But I have always wondered if real Pope barrels that carry only the "H. M. Pope" stamp might actually be barrels that he made but never tested (per his catalog) and therefore were not guaranteed.   That still might be true, I suppose; but I can't imagine Harry having such a bad day that he wouldn't instinctively recognize a bad barrel - i.e., one that would group no better than 5" from a machine rest - and either discard or redo it.

In any case, thanks for all the details.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #7 - Nov 26th, 2019 at 9:27am
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I know that over the years there have been a few barrel makers that have done Pope profile rifling and a few even did gain twist. I dont belive there were , in most cases, produced as fakes. But after they left the shop someone else added a H.M. Pope stamp as an attempt to fool. some unmarked barrels over the years may have been attributed to Pope by auction houses, whose knowledge on that subject is abymasil.
When the world and I were young I knew a couple of gunsmiths who used to "Upgrade" Parker shotguns They would take a field grade gun add engraving color case it put a nice piece of lumber on it and sell them. They were always honest about what they sold but i still wonder how many of those shotguns went to auctuon as AEs instead if field grade.

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marlinguy
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #8 - Nov 26th, 2019 at 10:55am
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As long as there's money to be made, there will always be unscrupulous people willing to fake things. In the case of HM Pope his name is likely the most recognized among gun people. Even those who have basic gun knowledge will often recognize Pope's name while not having the slightest knowledge of many other master barrel makers and gunsmiths of the early days. 
If the more refined collector isn't fooled by a fake Pope marked barrel, there are still plenty of less knowledgeable collectors who might be sucked in by a fake. As Fitz said, it's about $$$$ and until you shoot the gun you might not know it's a fake.
The last Pope rifle I bought the seller called the gun a "Henry Pope" rifle. So obviously he knew of the Pope name and knew it commanded some respect. But he didn't know enough to even know Pope's correct first name.
  

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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #9 - Nov 26th, 2019 at 5:49pm
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Was that Henry Pope your multi barrel outfit?
  
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #10 - Nov 26th, 2019 at 6:10pm
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Bill the two Rifles I mentioned were in the Amoskeage auction where a lot of Greatbatch  rifles were sold. Now the one I bought with no stamp was NOT called a Pope. But they did mention that it had a Left Hand twist and had holes for a False Muzzle. The other one did have H.M. Pope stamped on the barrel but they did not make any noise about it either. MY RIFLE SOLD FOR $3200.00. The other sold for $3500.00. Both had 32-40 on the barrel just as an original Winchester would have. There was in the Silent Auction 6 or 7 Ziplock bags of Molds by Pope and a couple by A.O.Zischang and some by Schoyen. A freind of mine went after them all, bid high and got most of them.
Now these all looked correct. But I got to thinking about them on the way home. It occurred to me that some of those molds belonged to Rifles sold that day. Well when he finally got them and I had a chance to check my Rifle it turned out to be a 33-40 and the other one was also a .33 I was able to get one of the Pope .33 molds it was all correct and even had the stamp on the side "by H.M.Pope Hartford Ct." This was done when Pope first got going in Hartford and was not I believe for very long by Pope. I think the Ideal molds he was using were hard on his stamp and he stopped doing that. Now as to Pope letting a Rifle out of his shop that did not shoot. I do not believe he would have. His standard Guarantee was 3" and with Testing 2 1/2" I believe he tested every thing he made in that time. Bill I did not intend to react to your question so briskly but could not help myself. I have known more than a few Single Shot enthusiast shooters now all past who actually knew and had conversations with Pope and swapped mail with him. I would have liked to aquire some of the letters on this end but the Wives had for some reason sent them out in trash before I could make an approach. HTH FITZ. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #11 - Nov 26th, 2019 at 7:20pm
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Thanks for the additional and interesting information, Fitz.  I have the Amoskeag-Greatbatch catalog, primarily of course because the majority of Warren's stuff was in it.

I will note one thing, though.  As I mentioned in my earlier email, Pope's 1899 catalog does state that he would sell an untested barrel, for the still somewhat princely sum of $35.  As to whether he actually sold any such, I'd hope you could find that out in the first volume of the Greatbatch Pope books.

Thanks again.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #12 - Nov 27th, 2019 at 10:34am
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Any info as to whether Pope sold any untested barrels likely never existed, and if there's a chance Pope recorded that info it sure doesn't exist today. So no telling if any untested barrels ever sold. But I'd doubt any Pope barrel (even untested) wouldn't shoot great, and shoot very close to a tested barrel. He just took way too much care in rifling a barrel for it to not shoot well, regardless.
  

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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #13 - Dec 11th, 2020 at 5:05pm
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While the discussion was about unmarked with a roll stamp barrels, did they not have a serial number & other stamped info that H M Pope normally put on them?
  
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Re: Pope barrel markings
Reply #14 - Dec 12th, 2020 at 10:35am
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ssmann wrote on Dec 11th, 2020 at 5:05pm:
While the discussion was about unmarked with a roll stamp barrels, did they not have a serial number & other stamped info that H M Pope normally put on them?


The majority of Pope barrels had all sorts of markings under the forearm, even on the barrels he didn't put his rollstamp on. But there have also been barrels with no markings under the forearm, but had his rollstamp on the top. And those barrels were found in the Hartford made barrels, and Stevens made barrels on occasion. 
There are also late barrels made by Pope and left unfinished externally that have no markings, and others unfinished that have his markings. So nothing is set in stone, just what we "usually see".
I have two Pope barreled Ballards with his name stamped on  the top, and all markings under the forearm. But I have a Stevens-Pope barreled Ballard with all the normal markings on the top, but only a serial number under the forearm.
  

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