My question is there significance or a pattern to barrels marked just H M Pope. Stevens-Pope, Hartford and Jersey City being obvious.

Vall there is another issue that some times comes up. A close friend who was chasing these things for many years once mentioned to me when this kind of question came up said there were Pope fakes. They looked good and were made in many forms. but did not shoot like a Pope. Left hand twist, False Muzzles, and stamped H.M. Pope. I bought a 33-40 at Auction that had all the earmarks but no stamp at all. It is a full Helm style Schuetzen, Left hand Twist
But it does not shoot very well. There were two in the Auction the one I got and another that was marked H.M. Pope. The other was Bought by a close friend of mine. Both were marked 32-40 but turned out to be .33 caliber and neither shot well. I believe they were both from one of Warren Greatbatch's stuff. The price was such that they still were a good buy at the time. All the bells and whistles were there. Good woods, Schuetzen configuration, Double Sets, Palm Rest, Scope Blocks and Iron Sights. I put some serious time into mine but was never satisfied with it. May some time consider selling it but hate to string someone else along. May in some time if I find a barrel that interest's me Re-barrel it. Not much else we can say because we really do not know the source of these types of Rifles. FITZ. OLD TUCK
P.S. by the way they both even have Pope style Rifling. FITZ.

Actually, Fitz, I can't imagine that anyone would go to such extremes.  I also find it hard to believe Greatbach was fooled.  Third, I would point out that in Pope's 1899 catalog, he gives three prices for his barrels: untested; tested and guaranteed to have put 10 shots in at least a 3" circle at 200 yards from his machine rest; and the same except the group guaranteed not to exceed 2-1/2".

Therefore, just to be contentious. since your write-up implies that neither rifle had it's "Pope-supplied" mould, and while I'm willing to believe that you did indeed put in "serious time" with your rifle, just what exactly does "not shoot like a Pope" and "didn't shoot well" mean?

Bill Lawrence

Thanks, Fitz, those details lay the issue to rest for me.

I had, by the way, asked not to cast any any doubts or slurs at you.  But I have always wondered if real Pope barrels that carry only the "H. M. Pope" stamp might actually be barrels that he made but never tested (per his catalog) and therefore were not guaranteed.   That still might be true, I suppose; but I can't imagine Harry having such a bad day that he wouldn't instinctively recognize a bad barrel - i.e., one that would group no better than 5" from a machine rest - and either discard or redo it.

In any case, thanks for all the details.

Bill Lawrence

As long as there's money to be made, there will always be unscrupulous people willing to fake things. In the case of HM Pope his name is likely the most recognized among gun people. Even those who have basic gun knowledge will often recognize Pope's name while not having the slightest knowledge of many other master barrel makers and gunsmiths of the early days. 
If the more refined collector isn't fooled by a fake Pope marked barrel, there are still plenty of less knowledgeable collectors who might be sucked in by a fake. As Fitz said, it's about $$$$ and until you shoot the gun you might not know it's a fake.
The last Pope rifle I bought the seller called the gun a "Henry Pope" rifle. So obviously he knew of the Pope name and knew it commanded some respect. But he didn't know enough to even know Pope's correct first name.

Bill the two Rifles I mentioned were in the Amoskeage auction where a lot of Greatbatch  rifles were sold. Now the one I bought with no stamp was NOT called a Pope. But they did mention that it had a Left Hand twist and had holes for a False Muzzle. The other one did have H.M. Pope stamped on the barrel but they did not make any noise about it either. MY RIFLE SOLD FOR $3200.00. The other sold for $3500.00. Both had 32-40 on the barrel just as an original Winchester would have. There was in the Silent Auction 6 or 7 Ziplock bags of Molds by Pope and a couple by A.O.Zischang and some by Schoyen. A freind of mine went after them all, bid high and got most of them.
Now these all looked correct. But I got to thinking about them on the way home. It occurred to me that some of those molds belonged to Rifles sold that day. Well when he finally got them and I had a chance to check my Rifle it turned out to be a 33-40 and the other one was also a .33 I was able to get one of the Pope .33 molds it was all correct and even had the stamp on the side "by H.M.Pope Hartford Ct." This was done when Pope first got going in Hartford and was not I believe for very long by Pope. I think the Ideal molds he was using were hard on his stamp and he stopped doing that. Now as to Pope letting a Rifle out of his shop that did not shoot. I do not believe he would have. His standard Guarantee was 3" and with Testing 2 1/2" I believe he tested every thing he made in that time. Bill I did not intend to react to your question so briskly but could not help myself. I have known more than a few Single Shot enthusiast shooters now all past who actually knew and had conversations with Pope and swapped mail with him. I would have liked to aquire some of the letters on this end but the Wives had for some reason sent them out in trash before I could make an approach. HTH FITZ. OLD TUCK

Any info as to whether Pope sold any untested barrels likely never existed, and if there's a chance Pope recorded that info it sure doesn't exist today. So no telling if any untested barrels ever sold. But I'd doubt any Pope barrel (even untested) wouldn't shoot great, and shoot very close to a tested barrel. He just took way too much care in rifling a barrel for it to not shoot well, regardless.

ssmann wrote on Dec 11^th, 2020 at 5:05pm:


The majority of Pope barrels had all sorts of markings under the forearm, even on the barrels he didn't put his rollstamp on. But there have also been barrels with no markings under the forearm, but had his rollstamp on the top. And those barrels were found in the Hartford made barrels, and Stevens made barrels on occasion. 
There are also late barrels made by Pope and left unfinished externally that have no markings, and others unfinished that have his markings. So nothing is set in stone, just what we "usually see".
I have two Pope barreled Ballards with his name stamped on  the top, and all markings under the forearm. But I have a Stevens-Pope barreled Ballard with all the normal markings on the top, but only a serial number under the forearm.