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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP. (Read 4551 times)
Pepperpete
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Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Nov 3rd, 2019 at 10:49pm
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Long time reader first post.
Looking for an explanation for what is happening with my BP loads in my Martini Cadet. Yes, I know the Cadet was not released as a BP cartridge but, you see, mine has been re-chambered in .32-40 with no modifications and I would like to use BP in our BP shoots.
It shoots nitro very well using 17.5 gr AR 2207 (H4198 I think) and can clock up a respectable 3 MOA when my eyes are tuned in for the Parker Hale peep. The problem is when I have tried even mild BP loads the primers pop out for some reason. They don't come all the way out but stand proud by about 1/16". I have checked the headspace and it seems OK and no popped primers with nitro powder.
Following are my BP loads:
. Fire formed .30-30 cases (.32-40 are hard to come by here)
. Wano ffg BP 
. 30gr, 33gr, 35gr 
. Oat bran filler when required
. 148gr cast RN 30:1
. 1/16" compression
. No crimp
Winchester LR primers

I have also tried duplex loads #10% but got the same result.
Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Pete 


  
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oneatatime
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #1 - Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:15am
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Sounds like you do have some headspace and rapid case expansion from the BP is freezing the case to the chamber walls is allowing the primer which has backed out by the amount of the headspace to not be overtaken by the case since it is not following the primer back. Just a guess.
« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2019 at 11:20am by oneatatime »  
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Pepperpete
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #2 - Nov 4th, 2019 at 3:31am
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Thanks for your input oneatatime. Have had a knowledgeable friend measure 'head gap 'and found it was .014"!! Looks like what I thought was headspace was not correct. Still don't understand why nitro does not pop primers.
  
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JSB30
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #3 - Nov 4th, 2019 at 6:37am
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Are you full length sizing. If so take a case you fired with smokeless and back sizing die off a couple of turns and load with Blackpowder. Smokeless is pushing case back against breechblock and reseating your primers while black is not. It is a headspace problem.
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #4 - Nov 5th, 2019 at 9:25am
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If the gun shoots OK and you can slide the shells with protruding primers into your shell holder for decapping/resizing, you might just opt to ignore it.  A lot of Win 94s have been set back by long use and wear, and still soldier on, according to McFarland’s gunsmithing book.

However, 1/16” protrusion is a lot.  I’m surprised you don’t have misfires and light primer strikes.

I have a H&A/M&H .38-55 shotgun that wouldn’t fire unless pointed skyward.  All original, as far as I could see; maybe the old folded-head shells needed a deeper rim cut.  I soldered a piece of shim stock, of sufficient thickness to make up the difference, to the end of a piece of round stock, turned the rim and base diameters on the lathe, melted off the resultant “washer,” snipped out a section for the extractor, and soldered the piece into the rim seat.

Works fine now, using blown-out modern .30-30 shells, and the fix is almost invisible.
  
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beltfed
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #5 - Nov 6th, 2019 at 10:11pm
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One thing to try:
Determine how far out to seat your bullets such that they will reach the leade/throat SNUGLY. 
Load more of the BP such that the bullet when seated 
engrave into the leade/throat .
this should be a good test and should fireform the brass
while tight to the face of the breechblock
Will be interesting if this might reduce or eliminate
the backed out primers.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Pepperpete
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #6 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 4:09am
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Thanks for all your input. I have noted a couple of fixes I would like to try. A few days before I get to the range but I will report back. 
Answer to your questions: 1. Yes, new .30-30 brass sized then fire formed with nitro. 2. Using CCI and Winchester large rifle primers, the feel tight on seating with hand tool. 3. 1/16' is a max protrusion usually less but very noticeable 4. Yes, full length sizing each load.
Will try seating bullet out a little and backing off the sizing die to see if it improves things. As I can't see an easy fix to the headspace problem, I'm starting to think ignoring the matter might be the way to go. It is a 100 year old rifle after all.
Many thanks  Smiley
  
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RemFan
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #7 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 9:44am
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My suggestion would be to not ignore the headspace problem.

Try what beltfed said, then do not full length size them after you fireform them that way.
If you still feel the need to resize them, back off your sizeing die about  a 16th of an inch from making contact with the shell holder and that should retain the new configuration of the cases after you have loaded and fired them with the bullet seated firmly into the lands.
Good luck. 
  
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Pepperpete
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #8 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:44pm
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Remfan,
Yep, plan on giving beltfed/arnie's suggestion a go. Just love that .32-40 cartridge, hope it works.
Thanks
Pete
  
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Walt Longmire
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #9 - Nov 10th, 2019 at 11:29pm
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Do not ignore the situation 
You got to keep the genie in the bottle😉 the primer pushing out is a sign of the genie (pressure) trying to get out .   black powder is an explosive and smokeless powder is a propellant they behave much differently.                 black powder pressure is achieved very quickly and smokeless generally is a more gradual build but can achieve higher pressure. 
The head space on a rimed ctg. Is the distance between face of the chamber/ barrel  and the breach face less the thickness of the rim of the ctg.
If the primer is protruding from the case you HAVE A HEADSPACE PROBLEM !   
Many black powder guns have a very tight headspace  setting often referd to as tight breaching 

14 thous seems kind of loose to me
good luck and be safe


  
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Pepperpete
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #10 - Nov 11th, 2019 at 5:17am
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Thanks Walt. Yes, even to me the headspace issue is a big problem. It is such a sweet little gun to shoot I would like to see if I can continue to use it. If I knew how to adjust headspace I would but, the Cadet action doesn't seem to allow any adjustment. Not that I can see anyway. 
Thanks for your words of caution.
Pete
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #11 - Nov 11th, 2019 at 5:31am
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It does - just set the barrel back.  Or as others have noted, don't FL size those cases, a necksize would also work, together with the bullet seated hard into the rifling so you can barely cllose the block.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #12 - Nov 11th, 2019 at 11:52am
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You might make some washers to put on the case.  I have done that before using a ring of #14 copper wire and flattening it a bit.  A pain to do for lots of shooting  Undecided
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #13 - Nov 13th, 2019 at 5:55pm
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I have a Ballard that also pushes primers proud of the case head upon firing. The cartage is also 32-40. Pushing a fire formed case into the chamber and laying a straight edge across the rear of the barrel I have a gap of .012. I am using 4227 powder and Federal LR primers. Upon firing the firing pin drives the case tightly against the front of the rim. The primer fires and the burning powder expands the case to tightly grip the chamber walls. The pressure of the burning gasses push the primer backwards towards the breach block until it is in full contact with it. This slamming against the face of the breach block is very hard on the block and will cause it to wear where the primer contact takes place.
The way I have fixed this problem is to effectively thicken the cartage rims by .012. I have made a die on my lathe out of a piece of scrap steel so a 32-40 case will slide into it and the back of the rim sits flush with the end of the die. With my mill I have cut four places at 90 deg. apart that are .012 deep. The recesses are about 1/8" wide. I clamp the die in my vise and insert a 32-40 brass case and with a 1/8" flat end punch I strike the rim so the brass is driven into the recess .012". This method seems a bit crude but it works for me.

A. J.Palik
« Last Edit: Nov 13th, 2019 at 7:23pm by Oldman1950 »  
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Pepperpete
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Re: Martini Cadet Popping Primers When Using BP.
Reply #14 - Nov 13th, 2019 at 7:15pm
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I made up 10 rounds as beltfed suggested and sent them down range yesterday. Cases were trimmed and sized to one full turn off full length, projectiles touching the lands. I didn't worry about accuracy as I was only interested to see if the primers would still pop out. I can report success.
Loaded 148gr RN lead, a mild load 28gr ffg plus filler, 1/16" compression and standard Win L/R primers. Not one primer popped out although a couple were still a little proud but acceptable in my opinion and no problem extracting fired cases.
I appreciate everyone's input, it will keep me shooting this great little gun for a while longer.
  
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