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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold??? (Read 6465 times)
Schutzenbob
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #15 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 1:37am
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Randy, several times I've tried to retrieve fired bullets from a sand bank to examine the base, but I've never been successful. Any ideas?  Tongue
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #16 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 7:08am
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Thanks, Randy.  The first time I read The Bullet's Flight, my small bear brain often found the technical aspects tough going, and now I'm much older and even less smart.  Still, maybe I'll give it another go.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #17 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 7:25am
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Randy
I wish I could take a photo of a fired bullet as good as the one you posted, but I do have a couple of questions and theories.
Firstly it would seem logical that a groove diameter bullet would displace less lead towards the base upon firing perhaps.
Secondly would not placing a card wad under the seated bullet when seating it protect the base from damage during firing ?.
I don't think Dr Mann's groups of 1.5" at 100 yards are very impressive, especially using duplex loads, my 40-65 Hi Wall when breech seated will do that on any decent day, breech seated with straight black powder loads at 100 m, not yards
This is with a scope sight, shot off sand bags with no barrel sled which are not allowed in our black powder club shoots.
As I have never recovered any of my fired bullets, perhaps my using a wad under them makes no difference at all, the bullets are all sized .408" which is the groove diameter of the GM barrel I have in the rifle.
Mike.
  
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #18 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 9:23am
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RSW, I have a copy of Mann's book with Pope's annotations.  He seemed to disagree that bore diameter pure lead bullets were the most accurate.  Several months ago I posted a scan of that page.   His writing is super hard to read though.

With respect to the finning problem at the base, Dan Theodore and I had a conversation about it years ago.  He'd done some testing and, with black powder, tested several wad combinations.  No wads and veg wads left finned bases on recovered bullets.  LDPE wads reduced the finning, and HDPE wads eliminated it.   He was of the opinion that pushing a bullet through the bore produced very different results on the base than what you see on a recovered bullet that was fired through the rifle. 

As an aside, none of my recovered bore diameter PP bullets have ever showed fins.

Chris.
  
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #19 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 9:32am
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Nice bullet bases but I'm having trouble grasping the shearing of the bases. Sure would be nice to see a video of the whole process from the pouring of the molten lead to the mold split and bullet drop. I have never seen a sprue plate shear lead in such a manner, very intriguing.
  
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #20 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 10:33am
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I bevel my bases it leaves a place for the fins to go / eliminates them. The below target was shot with beveled bases that came out of a Hoch nose pour mould. In other words I remove the sharp edges on purpose. 

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #21 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 10:37am
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Bob
Catching fired cast lead bullets undamaged has to be tricky. Early on in his experiments Mann fired at about 200 yards into soft fresh snow banks (not a likely scenario where we live). Later he switched to oiled sawdust. He states it took about 5 feet of the stuff to capture a significant number of .32 caliber bullets undamaged. As I recall, he used what he identified as a light machine oil to treat the sawdust and had it loose (not compacted) in his catch box. There were bullets that were never found, others that were damaged on impact and others that went through the catch box. The end of the catch box can be seen in one photo in the book. The face appears to be about one foot square. Seems to me like a slightly larger face and a box at least a couple feet longer would have been more successful but then Dr. Mann didn't ask for my opinion when he had it built  Undecided
« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 10:58am by RSW »  

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #22 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 10:57am
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JL and Dave
I respect your shooting abilities and you both know far more than I about precision BR shooting with cast lead bullets. BUT not to disparage what you guys have achieved, you shoot with smokeless powder. Dr. Mann's cast bullet experiments were fired largely with duplex loads. That propellant is more disruptive to a bullet's base on firing than smokeless. As in so many of his tests, bore diameter soft lead bullets upset completely to groove diameter. Not only did they completely fill to groove diameter, nearly all recovered bullets had bases that were oblique (not square) to the bullet body. So . . . not only did powder ignition mash the bases enough to fill the barrel, it made what were perfectly square bases oblique to the bullet body nearly every time.
Please don't mistake what I'm relating about Dr. Mann's experiments as acceptance or supportive of all his results. I started out re-reading his book to see what of his findings might still be relevant to today's shooters using black powder and/or duplex loads. I think his hang up on bore diameter soft lead bullets was kind of nutty but he was not looking only for tight groups. He was looking to eliminate the cause(s) of inaccuracy.
  

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #23 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 11:30am
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Randy W. I also feel that the way the breech seater is constructed helps to play an important part in it all. The way I went about it for my 25-35 is I up-sized a pre-turned neck and fire formed seater case to perfectly fit the diameter of the neck in the chamber. I then made the back of the seater plug to perfectly fit the inside diameter of the seater case, the middle to perfectly fit the freebore and the front to perfectly fit the bore diameter. This helps to introduce the bullet to be square and central to the bore. I also seat my bullets until they engrave completely through the baseband and when seating a bullet the nose of the seater plug now being bore diameter it also helps to elminate any fining. And more importantly it also keeps the base of the bullet square and central to the bore and the bases will also remain flat. The way I designed the lead angle on my chambering reamer is for it to help start and guide the nose of bullet to also being square and central to the bore. When I refer to a perfect fit my guage pins are minus .0002 tenths and they are what I used to achieve all of the required dementions along with the help of my reamer print.
« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 11:42am by JLouis »  

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #24 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 12:08pm
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A sprue plate hold down spring as shown below is also very helpful in achieving flat bases using a base pour mould. I bought mine from LBT Bullet Moulds and the only place that I could find them. 

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #25 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 3:32pm
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One of the things to keep in mind about the bullets of Dr. Mann, would be quality. He had photos of voids and wires in voids indicating direction of the void in the bullet. Not hard to imagine a base collapsing into a void with soft lead.

Something that shows up on solid copper bullets that are less the groove diameter, is different depth of grooves left by the lands. Often you can also see on the nose that the bullet started down the bore at an angle. 

A lead bullet under the same conditions would be more likely to contort in shape to fill any void in the bore. Since the pressure to fill those voids is applied from the rear, it would make sense the rear would distort.

The same would apply to tight and loose spots in the bore. Again I would apply lessons learned from solid copper. When the bullet is too hard to obturate and expand to fill the bore, you can see where carbon gas has blown by the bearing surface. A soft bullet would be more likely expand and contract, distorting under pressure.

Just a thought based on observations testing many different types of bullets.
  
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #26 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 4:49pm
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Not much we can do about the displacement of metal at the base of the bullet, short of muzzle loading; but, what about the effects of nose slump? Does the large meplat of a nose pour mould offset some of that?
  

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #27 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 10:09pm
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Jeff
You are on to something with your statement about nose slump. I don't know if it's the size of the meplat or the short nose of the traditional "Pope" type bullet. Nose slump is less of an issue with long bearing band, short nose bullets than with long elliptical designs.
  

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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #28 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 11:20pm
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Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Pope who suggested that by muzzle loading the bullet, any metal that was displaced by the barrels rifling was moved to the front of the bullet where it would have a lesser effect on accuracy than on the base.
Mike.
  
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Re: Who Makes a Nose Pour Mold???
Reply #29 - Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:20am
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It was an idea that sounded good but I believe it was the Irish who found out that it was not necessarily the case;-)
  
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