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Bulseyetom
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Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Oct 17th, 2019 at 7:21pm
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I am finalizing my hunting load for a mule deer hunt with my 40/65 Hiwall and have a question for those more knowledgeable than myself.  I have a Zika rear sight and a Lyman 17A with an aperture until such time as I fine tune the load and then I will switch to a pinhead insert.  I am shooting duplex loads of 5 grains of Re 7 and the rest Swiss 1.5 with very slight compression.  The bullets I am shooting are a 300 gr FN and a 425 gr FN.  I am getting my best groups with the 425 grain bullet but the 300 grain is certainly good enough for hunting.  I had the rifle sighted in at 100 yards with the 300 grain bullet and then decided to see where the 425 would hit so I let loose three that shot about an inch at 100 yards but are 10" higher.  What is going on that there is so much difference?  I am shooting on a solid concrete bench with the barrel in a good bag set up and a rear bag.  I can't see the best but am shooting several moa consistently with both loads and several groups with the same results.   
Is the heavier recoil raising the barrel before the bullet clears causing this?  Again, dumb but happy.  Tom Undecided
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #1 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 7:41pm
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Yup.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #2 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 7:44pm
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Assuming a 32" barrel, the muzzle would only have to be .09" higher to move the the POA 10".  Huh
  

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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #3 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 8:17pm
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More recoil and a slower barrel time resulting in more movement of the rifle before the bullet exits the muzzle.
  
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oldman46
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #4 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 12:08am
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Once I tried to explain to a shooter at our range why his heavier bullets were hitting higher than the lighter ones he had been using. My explanation was identical to Geadeye Bly's. Slower velocity for the heavier more barrel movement versus faster velocities less barrel movement. Guy looked at me like I had 3 heads. Finally said to him after multiple explanations "OK you figure it out". 45/70 is a perfect example of this as the OP posts about. And please this is not meant to the wrong way to the OP and such is/was my intent. Same thing happens with cast versus jacketed bullets in my Finn M27 Moisin Nagant. In most jacketed bullets in my rifle shoot to the sights. But cast bullets are a whole game on their own. With the sights set at 500 meters I get cast bullets centered on the target at 100 yds. Trajectory like a thrown football. Frank
  
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #5 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 2:49pm
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I suspect that the 300 Gr. bullet is just shooting flatter. And the 425 Gr. is shooting higher because that is the correct Elevation for that Bullet weight and load as a Mid Range Trajectory. HTH Regards, FITZ. OLD TUCK. Smiley
  
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #6 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 11:06pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Oct 19th, 2019 at 11:10am:
....300 grain bullet at 1250 fps is 1041 ft.lb and 1411 Joules
425 grain bullet at 1250 fps is 1425 ft.lb and 2000 Joules....

How do we know that the velocity is identical for this example? There is a guessing chance here that the propellant charge, the thing generating the energy, is identical.
  
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #7 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 10:43am
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Honestly, the only correct answer is “not enough information”.

It’s not likely a 10” difference do to any one factor, so you need to look at them all.

The most effect will likely be drop. Plugging both bullets and velocities into a ballistic calculator with a 5 yard zero and 0” above bore for sight height will answer that question pretty quick.

Bullet BC will be the biggest factor in drop. To say that the heavier bullet will “always have Less drop” is just flat out wrong. This can easily be proven by shooting the same bullet loaded forward and backward. The shot with the most pointy end forward will have less drop.

Kinetic energy/velocity drops very differently for different shape.

Recoil is again measurable, but I would argue recoil has less effect than recoil management by the shooter. Bracing for the heavier load will cause more point of impact shift than the actual recoil shift.

Shooting direction east to west or west to east will make measurable difference do to time of flight if you want to be critical.

Personally I always calculate the actual drop first, before I get into all the more subtle reasons. It takes most of the mystery out.
  
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craigd
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #8 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 10:49am
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I think the overall thought of some of the previous comments is about how the duration that the bullet is in the rifle affects the point of impact. Maybe, ballistic drop and kinetic energy charts start only at muzzle velocity and what happens as the bullet travels down range? I have a revolver that sights in normally with magnum type rounds, but the rear sight can't adjust enough to bring it all the way down when using special velocity loads. It's not proof of anything, but I think the given loads still have their given ballistics, maybe they're just pointed in a little different direction by the time they clear the muzzle.
  
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GT
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #9 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 1:44pm
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If anyone cares to, I've attached some actual data may cause some head scratching...   
A few details and description of data presented- Data is in the form of a PDF, targets are jpeg.
From the time stamp one can see there is less than an hour difference from one group to the next. 
I did shoot several other loads in the same period - total of 50 rounds shot.   This is not a small caliber (50-90 Sharps) - the rifle is a C-sharps 75- (32" barrel), comfortable, but not for wimps either...  The distance was 100 yards, off the bench, an economical Hoppes front rest with a small muzzle bag filled with rice.  Attached are pictures of these targets with correlating loads- not spectacular- but respectable.
My sight staff setting is noted in inches on my report, the 526 grain bullet sight setting is .590" and the 625 grain bullet sight setting is .620".  There are a couple other factors to note here- I forgot to change the bullet weight setting on the machine so kinetic energy calculations are not valid for the heavier bullet.  The load for both bullets was the same charge weight and powder- velocities do indicate this- had the powder charge been increased to same velocities would the sight setting been the same? would the group have been better or worse? If time and ambition permit I may go there in the future...
BC's are calculated from velocity averages using an online app - they indicate that the 625 grain bullet has a slightly better BC.  At further distances this proved to offer a slight advantage? - 600 yards the group held slightly under 2 minutes with the heavier and well over 2 minutes with the lighter (wind was moderate/similar in both) I don't have my sight settings for this distance right in front of me but I recall the setting for the lighter bullet being higher on the staff.
 
In summation, I'm not going to discount the theory that heavier recoil causes one to shoot high - that's more of an individual response.   I am going to agree with Dave regarding the kinetic energy theory - a body in motion...   I've also had some projectiles with severe weight differences but the shapes created a far different BC and this combined with the k-energy factor created far different down range sight settings (the heavy NASA bullet design in 38, 40, 44 and 45 caliber all come to mind). 
Best Regards,
Greg
  
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GT
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #10 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 2:01pm
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Dave,
Just saw your response on the spitzer and boat-tail in cast bullets.  I spent the last two winters experimenting with these features and cast bullets (swaging was easier for me though).  Bruce M from the forum here made a couple of comments in passing, I promptly ignored and continued my research but he knew what he was talking about - I wasted some time  Grin.
I made swaging dies and did quite a few designs for paper patched bullets - large boat-tails - long noses, and several combinations of each.   Big round noses and flat bases at our velocities seem to win out everytime - I had some impressive groups at close distances 100y and less - but - when I stepped beyond the accuracy was deplorable - minute of hillside became tough.
Greg
  

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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #11 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 4:02pm
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GT wrote on Oct 20th, 2019 at 1:44pm:
....I am going to agree with Dave regarding the kinetic energy theory - a body in motion...   I've also had some projectiles with severe weight differences but the shapes created a far different BC and this combined with the k-energy factor created far different down range sight settings....

I think the theory is just fine myself, I was mostly wondering if the theory was being applied in a way that it fit the example. It just wasn't clear that velocities were equal when the two different bullets were fired.

In my revolver example, best I could tell shooting conditions were very similar, if not, identical. The bc of the bullet must have been similar, because it's the same bullet. The only difference is the velocity. The round that's about three hundred fps slower hits about eight to ten inches higher at 25yds with the same sight settings, for me. I was just thinking there might be other influences in addition to bc.

In an unrelated story, I was recently fiddling with a rifle that I'd like to use for coyotes after regular hunting season is over. I only use one load in it. My instincts are to let the rifle, sort of, free recoil to check how it groups. But, I like to watch the impact through the scope, so I grip the the forearm  down against the hunting rest I'll use in the field and it shoots noticably lower. All I figure, is somehow or another, I just have to be consistent.
  
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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #12 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 4:44pm
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  The difference in bullet drop at 100 yards between the two bullets, if their velocities were the same (which they are not), would be at most 1 inch; not 10 inches.
  

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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #13 - Oct 20th, 2019 at 6:46pm
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All the reading I've amassed over the years points to Deadeye Bly's explanation being the correct one.
  

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Re: Why is heavier bullet shooting so high
Reply #14 - Oct 31st, 2019 at 7:53am
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I wonder if the heavier bullet is providing for more complete powder burn. For the same amount of powder and bullet my loads using Fed 215M primers groups quite a bit higher (at 385 m) than the same loads using CCI BR2 primers. In my case, I believe the loads using the stronger Fed 215M primers that this primer is giving more complete powder burn and perhaps an earlier complete burn near the chamber rather than out further towards the muzzle.
  
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