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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction (Read 14770 times)
marlinguy
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #15 - Oct 25th, 2019 at 10:17am
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Rebel wrote on Oct 24th, 2019 at 9:33pm:


Aaron
still hoping for that $1500 Pope


I think you missed it if you didn't win it at this auction. One did sell in the $1500 range.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #16 - Oct 25th, 2019 at 10:22am
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As for the trend towards internet bidding and buying; not me. I still can't bring myself to buy an expensive gun without personal hands on examination. And from talking to others at gun shows I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.
I do agree that there is a growing number of bidders who have no issue bidding sight unseen, but for the most part they seem to be younger folks who don't buy the guns we're interested in. Of course there are old farts my age who have adapted and bid, but I don't know many.
  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #17 - Oct 25th, 2019 at 2:40pm
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Vall, I did miss it, do you have a link? I'm one of those old farts who does bid online, so far, so good. I have gotten a dog once or twice, but not on expensive pieces. Overall my experience has been good.

Bill, as you say, time will tell.

Aaron
still looking
  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #18 - Oct 25th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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Aaron here is the link for the $1500 Pope. Look no longer

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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #19 - Oct 25th, 2019 at 10:30pm
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amazing, I hope someone here bought it!

there was a guy that would bet you if you played the same lottery number every day, that the day it comes up you wouldn't have it.

seems, I'm that guy.

I've been dumping a lot of cash into my 57 Desoto Adventurer to finish it up and haven't been checking the auctions.

Aaron
lookin for the next one!
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2019 at 10:37pm by Rebel »  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #20 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 8:03pm
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I have no doubt that the 26% buyers premium at Morphy's keeps the bids low. This is on top of getting a big percentage from the seller. The only ones making any money are the auction companies.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #21 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 9:35pm
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And here's the rub about the ever-increasing buyer's premium.  Unless the seller agrees otherwise in his auction's contract, under that section of the Uniform Commercial Code that governs auctions, the buyer's premium belongs - and I do mean legally - to the seller.  What's sad, of course, is that very, very few sellers know that and auction houses seldom, if ever, disclose it.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Remington40x
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #22 - Oct 28th, 2019 at 2:05pm
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Bill:

Could you explain what you posted about the buyer's premium in more detail?  I thought that was the auctioneer's compensation, particularly in cases where no seller's premium is charged.

Thank you.

Rem
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #23 - Oct 28th, 2019 at 4:37pm
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I was almost afraid someone would ask that.  But the point is so important, here’s the simplified, condensed version.

As laid out in the UCC, there are three legal rules that apply, except in the case where the auctioneer is the owner of the property being auctioned.

First, the buyer’s premium is just another amount of the purchase money paid by the buyer for the property won.  Therefore, since the auctioneer is legally the agent for the seller and is being compensated by the seller via a commission and sundry contractually-agreed-to cost reimbursements, for the auctioneer to also receive compensation from the buyer creates a legal conflict of interest.

Second, legally an agent works under the control of a principal and only within the express authority granted by the principal.  In short, an auctioneer can only do what the seller authorizes.  Therefore, unless the seller has agreed via the sale contract to allow the buyer’s premium to go to the auctioneer, the auctioneer claiming it would allow the seller to sue for breach of contract.

Third, the agency relationship between an auctioneer and a seller is founded squarely upon a fiduciary duty that requires total loyalty to the seller, which includes the strict and explicit prohibition of “self-dealing”, the legal term for an agent acting in furtherance of his own interest and gain rather than that of the principal’s.  Therefore, again, unless he does so with the seller’s contractual approval, an auctioneer cannot keep the buyer’s premium proceeds without breaching the fiduciary duty owed to the seller.

How do you like them apples?

Bill Lawrence
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #24 - Oct 29th, 2019 at 10:45am
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Have you ever heard of any cases where the seller sued the auctioneer and claimed the buyer's premium?
  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #25 - Oct 29th, 2019 at 10:50am
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Bill:

Thanks very much.  That was a very clear and concise explanation.

Rem
  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #26 - Oct 29th, 2019 at 12:50pm
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not sure on antiques, but I believe the auction company must have an FFL and log your gun into their books. At that point do they become the actual owner? 
I've had guns on consignment at the LGS and to get them back I had to do the background check form, as if I was purchasing it for the first time.

I'm not sure if this is a wrinkle in Bill's explanation, where firearms might be an exception to the rule.

Aaron
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2019 at 12:57pm by Rebel »  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #27 - Oct 29th, 2019 at 1:31pm
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Good explanation, but would anyone want to bet on how the contract between the seller and auction house is written?
Chuck
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #28 - Oct 29th, 2019 at 4:37pm
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Good questions, all.

First, Rebel, auctioneers do not own the seller's property in any way unless they actually buy it, even firearms.  However, as at a gun shop which is selling your guns on consignment, I would not be surprised if "modern" guns do have to be logged.  But requiring a background check before returning your own non-sold guns is likely either the auction house being extra-cautious or a new ATF ploy for getting guns away from those who shouldn't have them in the first place.

Chuckster, if the contract says that buyer's premium proceeds go to the auctioneer, the seller shouldn't sign it unless that's acceptable.  If the contact doesn't mention the buyer's premium, the not-so-smart buyer can sign it and sue later if he doesn't get those extra monies.  But no matter how the contract is written, what I recommend is that the seller negotiate and offer to contractually split the premium proceeds in a mutually agreeable way.  If the consignment is large enough, my experience is that most auctioneers will work something out rather than throw the sale away.

Vall, unfortunately auction-issues-and-ethics expert Steve Proffitt, legal counsel to several auction houses, instructor at several auctioneering schools, and an auctioneer himself, died before I got to ask him your very question.  But, while I have not read of it happening in any of the trade papers, I do know that several auction houses have either dropped the buyer's premium or not instituted it at all rather than take a chance on being sued.

Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2019 at 7:37pm by Bill Lawrence »  
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Re: Upcoming Morphy-Julia Auction
Reply #29 - Oct 30th, 2019 at 7:54am
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 28th, 2019 at 4:37pm:
I was almost afraid someone would ask that.  But the point is so important, here’s the simplified, condensed version.

As laid out in the UCC, there are three legal rules that apply, except in the case where the auctioneer is the owner of the property being auctioned.

First, the buyer’s premium is just another amount of the purchase money paid by the buyer for the property won.  Therefore, since the auctioneer is legally the agent for the seller and is being compensated by the seller via a commission and sundry contractually-agreed-to cost reimbursements, for the auctioneer to also receive compensation from the buyer creates a legal conflict of interest.

Second, legally an agent works under the control of a principal and only within the express authority granted by the principal.  In short, an auctioneer can only do what the seller authorizes.  Therefore, unless the seller has agreed via the sale contract to allow the buyer’s premium to go to the auctioneer, the auctioneer claiming it would allow the seller to sue for breach of contract.

Third, the agency relationship between an auctioneer and a seller is founded squarely upon a fiduciary duty that requires total loyalty to the seller, which includes the strict and explicit prohibition of “self-dealing”, the legal term for an agent acting in furtherance of his own interest and gain rather than that of the principal’s.  Therefore, again, unless he does so with the seller’s contractual approval, an auctioneer cannot keep the buyer’s premium proceeds without breaching the fiduciary duty owed to the seller.

How do you like them apples?

Bill Lawrence



Bill,

I am quite interested in your analysis.  Would you please direct me to the sections of the Uniform Commercial Code that apply?

This is an important point.

Thanks,
Curl
  
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