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Primer pocket swaging (Read 11557 times)

JerryH Frequent Elocutionist Offline ASSRA Member #10876 Posts: 1328 Location: Easton, CA Joined: Nov 9^th, 2014	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #30 - Oct 15^th, 2019 at 9:32pm	Print Post
	I have no pictures but back when I was still participating in BPCR Silhouette I saw at least two Rolling Blocks with damaged breechblocks. They were being loaded with large pistol primers. The consensus back then was that old original breechblocks were the only ones to worry about. No one seemed to have problems with modern rifles. However.....I do know of a FBW action with a damaged breechblock from using large pistol primers. The owner may chime in to verify this, if he sees this post. So if you're not having a problem I see no reason to change. If, like me, you tend to try to avoid possible problems it sure doesn't hurt to set the primer pockets to the right depth. It's not hard to do once you have the die to use. I think KFW is very wise to be doing this for his Ballard for the reason he mentioned. JerryH

	I'm not a complete idiot, some of my parts are missing.
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #31 - Oct 15^th, 2019 at 9:52pm	Print Post
	Jerry, Are the dies available somewhere? I have shot thousands of LP in my Ballard and never noticed any problem. After I heard about, I had the boys in Cody make a another breech block for it. I shoot the new one with modern steel. Handy to have a back up that a match. I hate it when i have 2 or 3 Ballards apart at a match to get one going again

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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JerryH Frequent Elocutionist Offline ASSRA Member #10876 Posts: 1328 Location: Easton, CA Joined: Nov 9^th, 2014	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #32 - Oct 15^th, 2019 at 10:03pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester, This is the latest contact info I found for Kermit Hoke. I'm not sure if he's still making the dies or not, but it wouldn't hurt to check with him. Hoke Long Range Rifle Sights 207 West Locust Lane, York, PA 17406 Phone: (717) 848-4276 kshoke@comcast.net JerryH

	I'm not a complete idiot, some of my parts are missing.
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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #33 - Oct 15^th, 2019 at 10:55pm	Print Post
	it's hard to believe .004 was the reason for the damage.unless there was a "control group: with similar loads with rifle primers it's just opinion.


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JerryH Frequent Elocutionist Offline ASSRA Member #10876 Posts: 1328 Location: Easton, CA Joined: Nov 9^th, 2014	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #34 - Oct 15^th, 2019 at 11:55pm	Print Post
	In Kermit's instructions he states that Remington primer pockets are .132 deep and the swage should take them down to .123 deep. That's .009. Not much, but more than .004, eh? Control groups? The "groups" that I shot with back then had very little, if any "control". Not trying to make light of this. Just pointing out that Kermit must have been making these for a reason. Could have been an answer to a problem that doesn't exist. As I stated earlier, if you're not having a problem why change. If you want to err on the side of caution, why not set them back? And I forgot, I have no opinion. Just ask my X. JerryH

	I'm not a complete idiot, some of my parts are missing.
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JackHughs Oldtimer Offline Posts: 657 Location: Riverbank Joined: Sep 27^th, 2008	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #35 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 12:26am	Print Post
	JerryH wrote on Oct 15^th, 2019 at 9:32pm: I have no pictures but back when I was still participating in BPCR Silhouette I saw at least two Rolling Blocks with damaged breechblocks. They were being loaded with large pistol primers. The consensus back then was that old original breechblocks were the only ones to worry about. No one seemed to have problems with modern rifles. However.....I do know of a FBW action with a damaged breechblock from using large pistol primers. The owner may chime in to verify this, if he sees this post. So if you're not having a problem I see no reason to change. If, like me, you tend to try to avoid possible problems it sure doesn't hurt to set the primer pockets to the right depth. It's not hard to do once you have the die to use. I think KFW is very wise to be doing this for his Ballard for the reason he mentioned. JerryH That would be me. FBW actions use a firing pin bushing made from a cut-off socket head set screw. The face of the bushing is quite soft. I used large pistol primers in .32-40 brass for a very long time and eventually, the firing pin bushing cratered. The effect was cumulative. As the bushing failed, the distance between the primer and the bushing face increased - which allowed the primer to hit the bushing face even harder. After a bit, primers were being captured in the crater and it was a real challenge to open the action. A friend made a replacement, hardened bushing and all has been well since. JackHughs

	The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B. Yeats
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GT Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2370 Location: Northeast Wyoming Joined: Jun 28^th, 2015	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #36 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 12:45am	Print Post
	Jerry, Thanks for sharing the details on the die and parts, I'll put them to use. Regards, Greg

	"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" T. A. Edison "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3982 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #37 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 12:24pm	Print Post
	Jack, how long did it take for the problem to reach its peak? In rounds fired, if you know. I have only shot a few rounds with pistol primers and didn't see any appreciable diff, so returned to the regular ones due to the warnings seen. I won't go back, just curious as to the amount of shooting it took. And, were the loads hotter than some of us shoot? And anything else that may have aided the primer's accelerated impact into the block. Powder speed, old pockets, anything else to help assess the process. Thanks.


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #38 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 4:40pm	Print Post
	I'm curious whether or not it would have mattered if it was a rifle or pistol primer if the area was that soft by the breech face were the primer set against.


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Hiwall55 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 468 Location: west central Illinois Joined: Jun 30^th, 2012	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #39 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 7:05pm	Print Post
	That's easy,if the primer did not have any room to move it wouldn't have had the momentum to cause the breech to crater.


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Cbashooter Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 1634 Location: Eastern Wa. Joined: Mar 31^st, 2018	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #40 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 7:37pm	Print Post
	Hiwall55 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2019 at 7:05pm: That's easy,if the primer did not have any room to move it wouldn't have had the momentum to cause the breech to crater. All primers will move back, the .004 difference was enough cause the problem is what I'm curious about.


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JackHughs Oldtimer Offline Posts: 657 Location: Riverbank Joined: Sep 27^th, 2008	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #41 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 8:21pm	Print Post
	calledflyer wrote on Oct 16^th, 2019 at 12:24pm: Jack, how long did it take for the problem to reach its peak? In rounds fired, if you know. I have only shot a few rounds with pistol primers and didn't see any appreciable diff, so returned to the regular ones due to the warnings seen. I won't go back, just curious as to the amount of shooting it took. And, were the loads hotter than some of us shoot? And anything else that may have aided the primer's accelerated impact into the block. Powder speed, old pockets, anything else to help assess the process. Thanks. This particular rifle was built by Barry Darr in 1977. When I bought it, about 16 years ago, it was obviously well used by its previous owners but there was no sign of firing pin bushing cratering. The rifle seemed to shoot well with medium charges of AA#9 and Remington large pistol primers. At the time, I was shooting several times each week and I guess that I used somewhere between one and two bricks of large pistol primers before the cratering became evident. After that, it took maybe 300 more shots before the cratering made the rifle unusable. JackHughs

	The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B. Yeats
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3982 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #42 - Oct 16^th, 2019 at 8:32pm	Print Post
	Thanks for the info about amount of shooting- if I understand correctly, the prior owner likely used rifle primers (no damage noted), and in the span of less than 2G of pistol primers, it showed obvious damage. That sure is quick enough to be a real worry. I did a hundred or so in my rifle, and there was no change in it's shooting, so I stopped- no damage either. But, I'd heard the warnings here and there. I opted for the 'err on the safe side' approach. I also had some notion that the pistol primers had a small possibility of not being seated to the same depth all the time, and that might cause small changes in ignition- don't know if that's real or just a dreamt up problem. Anyhow, I'm glad you got 'er fixed and it continues- it does, doesn't it?


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #43 - Oct 17^th, 2019 at 1:19pm	Print Post
	In regards to ignition and potential damage one has to keep in mind that the LP primers are seated 10 thousands deeper in a LR primer pocket and the firing pin protrusion is typically 54 thousands. When one includes the amount of head space it also moves the primer that much further from the firing pin and the face of the breech block also increasing the hammering effect. For some this could result in eratic ignition or no ignition at all depending on amount of the headspace. And another reason why swaging the primer pocket depth down to minimum LP specs. could also be advantages to consistent ignition and reaching a rifles full accuracy potential as well. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3982 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Primer pocket swaging Reply #44 - Oct 17^th, 2019 at 4:38pm	Print Post
	All very true, and I'm pleased none of that is a problem in my rifle, thus leaving me with the optimum solution- leave the brass alone and shoot rifle primers.


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