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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Damage to barrels by black powder (Read 10617 times)
beargrease
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Damage to barrels by black powder
Jul 1st, 2019 at 6:38pm
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I have a mint condition Stevens 44 in 51 trim chambered in 32Ideal. Working on a long article about reloading for this. Been at it a year and will need at least another year of research. I mentioned to a few shooters that when I am satisfied with smokeless loads, I want to work up BP loads. Several shooters remarked that BP is harsh on old barrels especially one so pristine.  I have shot BP for 60+ years and not heard of this rumor until two years ago.
Anybody have any experience with erosive power of BP on barrels?
« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:51pm by beargrease »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:01pm
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I have a excellent 44, with a pristine barrel, in 32/40. I've shot it mostly with GOEX FG and 4759, in a duplex load. It's still as good as the day I bought it.

You just need to clean the barrel, after use. It takes very little time as, the inside of the barrel and the muzzle, is all that needs cleaning.

For cleaning, I use water soluble cutting fluid,at 20/1, it has a rust inhibitor in it. 

Frank
  

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oneatatime
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 8:17pm
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I think you have heard from the wrong shooters. What could be harsh on old barrels is more likely to be hot burning double base smokeless powders and jacketed bullets. Obviously after 60 years with BP you know how to clean the barrel.
  
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Jeff Houck
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #3 - Jul 2nd, 2019 at 8:20am
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You've been given some bad advice. I have one rifle with over 10,000 rounds through it by actual count. It is still just as clean and bright as the day it came to live at my house. Plus how ever many through it before it came to live at my house. 

If you have a bore scope you can see the throats of modern rifles begin to be eroded in just a few hundred rounds. My .270 will now chamber a 160 gr. round nose bullet just pinched on top of the brass and still not touch the rifling. With a scope the throat looks like a dried and cracked mud flat. 

The actual flame temperature of black powder is low enough that it's not erosive. Modern powders are extremely hot and very erosive to old soft barrels, even more so than to modern harder barrels. Also, old soft barrels are more easily worn by jacketed bullets, but not by soft lead bullets. So the combination of BP and soft lead will not wear old barrels, but smokeless and jacket bullets will wear an old barrel out quickly. 

Old BP barrels are damaged by not cleaning them. BP residue is is not caustic, it is hydroscopic. Because of the attracted moisture it will begin rusting the old soft barrels overnight if you're in a humid environment. Especially a  humid salty environment. When I lived in very dry Arizona it was far less critical to clean immediately.

Also, as a side note, use a chamber/bore guide so you don't damage the barrel by cleaning. The old barrels are absolutely  butter soft. But this is also what allowed them to have such a fine smooth bright finish.
  

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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #4 - Jul 2nd, 2019 at 10:55am
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beargrease
Please consider what frnkeore stated about duplex loads. From about 1896-97 until the end of the Schuetzen era, the vast majority of the top tier shooters shot duplex loads either with black and a smokeless priming charge or semi-smokeless with a smokeless priming charge. Duplex loads are just as accurate as straight but with less barrel fouling.
Good luck with your load development.
NEVER exceed 10% smokeless to black ratio and weigh your charges for utmost accuracy.
  

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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #5 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 11:43am
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BP or Duplex loads is no harder than anything else. Frankly some of the suggestions I see on how to deal with leading will do more damage than a lifetime of shooting. I think that some of this comes from people getting old guns with the throats worn. My opinion is that most of that came from the old mercuric primers that were hard on throats.

40 Rod
  
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beargrease
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #6 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 3:34pm
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Thanks for your help fellas. Frnkeore, your experience with your 32-40 would be close to what I have. Funny how rumors start up and even more weird how they seem to persist. After rumors go around the campfire a few times they are repeated as solemn gospel.
Agree on duplex loads, I started using them in 1958 with a much used trapdoor 45-70. Good performance always. 
As for the hot flame of smokeless, hmm, hadn't thought of that. I only use lead bullets and mild velocities. For the pipsqueak 32 Ideal (32-25) I am using 5-6 gr Unique,  8-9 gr 2400  and 10 gr 4227; all with a 150 gr lead. This seems harmless, would you agree? If not, I may go to BP loads sooner than I thought. Digging through my junk recently, I came up with an old black #6 Lyman duplex measure. I forgot all about it. I am eager to clean it up and give it a try.
Thanks again.
« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2019 at 3:41pm by beargrease »  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #7 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 3:59pm
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Speaking for my own .32 Ideal Pope, straight black works just fine, though perhaps it's relevant that I'm using Pope's mould for the gun, too.

Bill Lawrence
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #8 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 4:06pm
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Single base powders burn cooler than double base powders (which contain nitroglycerin) although in the light loadings (low pressure) most of us use there may be little difference. These days it is sometimes difficult so find out which powders are single base, but SR4759 and Accurate 2015 are. I believe all the ones you listed are not. 5744 also is not. 2015 is an interesting powder seeming to deliver higher velocities with lower pressures but I don't know if anyone on the list has experimented with it.
  
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #9 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 3:53pm
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I suspect the idea that black powder is hard on the barrel is that after shooting black powder it seems necessary to clean the barrel again the next day to prevent rusting inside. I have had that trouble but maybe it is because I am used to shooting smokeless where you just wipe it a couple times and you can put it away. Apparently the cleaning required by black is different.
  
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #10 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 5:08pm
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Quarter_Bore wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 3:53pm:
I suspect the idea that black powder is hard on the barrel is that after shooting black powder it seems necessary to clean the barrel again the next day to prevent rusting inside. I have had that trouble but maybe it is because I am used to shooting smokeless where you just wipe it a couple times and you can put it away. Apparently the cleaning required by black is different.

It is.  Soap and water or equivalent solvent is a definite requirement.
  

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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #11 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:14pm
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I was thinking of trying 2015 in my 25 hornet, just have not got there yet. Anyone using it? Sorry to shift gears here.
  
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #12 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 11:14pm
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Having trouble with this cleaning thing.
Shoot both black duplex and smokeless in different rifles
Two or three patches with water soluble oil cleans black powder.
Takes eight to ten patches with Kroil or Hoppe's to get a similar clean with smokeless.
Both oiled afterward.
Black is much easier to clean than smokeless.
Chuck
  
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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #13 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 1:31am
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oneatatime wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 4:06pm:
Single base powders burn cooler than double base powders (which contain nitroglycerin) although in the light loadings (low pressure) most of us use there may be little difference. These days it is sometimes difficult so find out which powders are single base, but SR4759 and Accurate 2015 are. I believe all the ones you listed are not. 5744 also is not. 2015 is an interesting powder seeming to deliver higher velocities with lower pressures but I don't know if anyone on the list has experimented with it.


That double base powders burn hotter is a myth.  A simple resort to Boyle's Law will show that equal pressure yields equal temperature.   The actual problem lies in the chemistry of the powder gases.  Double base powder gas is oxygen rich, which causes the formation of brittle iron oxide particles on the steel surface, which get scraped away by the next shot.  Single base powder gas is oxygen poor.  They do allow iron nitride particles to form, but at a much slower rate, so erosion rate is much less.

FWIW - 4198 ought to work in the .32 Ideal, and it's a single base powder.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2019 at 1:38am by uscra112 »  

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Re: Damage to barrels by black powder
Reply #14 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 8:54am
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    Double-based powders DO burn hotter, which is why they will give higher velocities at the same pressure.  Simple physics of gas expansion.

CHRIS
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