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Tang sight ID (Read 13471 times)

Bill Lawrence Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1037 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #15 - Oct 5^th, 2019 at 8:21pm	Print Post
	It's quite easy to shorten a Winchester sight's long base to neatly fit a Stevens, Ballard, or other such tang. But shortening a Steven's base with its 1-1/2" spacing to fit a Ballard at 1-1/8" would seem to me to possibly require a new rear screw with a noticeably smaller head. Of course, if you really don't care about looks and if necessary are willing and able to readjust the staff's vertical position . . . Bill Lawrence
	« Last Edit: Oct 6^th, 2019 at 6:09pm by Bill Lawrence »

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16273 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #16 - Oct 6^th, 2019 at 9:33am	Print Post
	The issue is the 1 1/8" hole spacing for a Marlin Ballard. The leaf spring sits into a recess in the base, so if a longer base is shortened, then it will remove the recess at that end and allow the leaf spring to be able to slide out that end. So if this is indeed a Stevens sight, then there must be a Stevens with 1.125" hole spacing? I've got several Ballard rifles with this sight, which Marlin described as the "Gallery Peep Sight" or "Sporting Peep Sight".

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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11515 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #17 - Oct 6^th, 2019 at 11:31pm	Print Post
	First off, I don't see anywhere in this thread where pmcfall gives the hole spacing. Pictured below are features of the sight that are Stevens features not Ballard. Left is the screw head above the spring that no Ballard sight has. Middle is the profile of the base which is a Stevens feature not Ballard. Right is windage and lock screw in the eyepiece that is a Stevens feature, not Ballard. Some Stevens and Ballard sights have the outside mounted spring. The sights are easy to distinguish. The differences are obvious to anyone willing to take the time to look and compare the two sights. pmcfalls sight looks like a Stevens sight not a Ballard sight. As to base screw spacing. Stevens would re-barrel your rifle, restock your rifle. Stevens would do just about anything anyone was willing to pay for. Would it not be a simple matter for Stevens to use spacing that worked on a particular brand rifle?
	« Last Edit: Oct 6^th, 2019 at 11:39pm by westerner »
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Bill Lawrence Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1037 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #18 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 8:58am	Print Post
	As to base screw spacing. Stevens would re-barrel your rifle, restock your rifle. Stevens would do just about anything anyone was willing to pay for. Would it not be a simple matter for Stevens to use spacing that worked on a particular brand rifle? First of all, while Stevens did, in fact, repair or otherwise alter paying customers' guns, it stretches my credulity to assert that the company would have altered just a sight, especially when it would not have been a trivial modification. More especially, why would a customer pay for such a thing when a practically identical sight that fitted was available at comparatively less cost from Marlin? Be that as it may, you once demanded proof from me. So, in this case, where's yours? Bill Lawrence


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11515 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #19 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:09am	Print Post
	Bill Lawrence wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2019 at 11:54am: Proof? (And, no, not just because you said so.) Bill Lawrence Bill. You started the proof thing in this thread. Changing/providing custom screw spacing in a sight base is a trivial detail. Easily done. Do you require proof for that too? I made no statement of fact, Bill. Did you see the question mark at the end of my sentence?
	« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:17am by westerner »
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Bill Lawrence Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1037 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #20 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:31am	Print Post
	Changing/providing custom screw spacing in a sight base is a trivial detail. Easily done. When there's a long, flat spring in the base, I'd guess that a spacing conversion while possible would no longer be "trivial". Moreover, if it was "trivial", I'd also think there would be other, known examples of Stevens tang sights factory-fitted to non-Stevens guns, especially among their higher-grade sights. In any case, Joe's made his mind up, so I'm done with this one. Bill Lawrence


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11515 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #21 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:51am	Print Post
	Changing hole spacing in a sight base is very easy to do. I know from experience. This thread is about who manufacture the sight in the picture pmcfall posted not hole spacing. Below, another Stevens sight on a early Stevens rifle showing the same features shown in pmcfalls picture. Not sure if that's a Stevens rifle. I don't know much about the early Stevens break open single shot rifles so please do not ask me to prove it. Details. You old duffers are not looking at the details. Surprising as they are right in front of your eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you couldn't tell the difference between a Chevy and a Ford. Is it old age? Dementia? Got a little dementia goin there? Do I have to post pictures of Ballard sights now? Any of you old farts own a book?

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11515 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #22 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 10:15am	Print Post
	"In any case, Joe's made his mind up, so I'm done with this one" Good. Go read a book. Do some machine work too. Billy.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16273 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #23 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 4:45pm	Print Post
	I don't believe most gun makers also made their own sights. I believe that sights were made to specs given by each gun maker to jobbers who built sights in large quantities for the various makers. Some makers had unique sights, while others shared common sights. It's not unusual to see front and rear sights for several gun makers with identical style sights. If they were making them themselves, each would be unique to that maker. That doesn't mean that all maker's sights are the same, but there are numerous examples of gun sights that indeed are the same, and appear to be made by the same supplier. If a gun company made their own sights, then special ordering a sight with a different spacing wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. But I've never seen a sight that was in the style for a particular maker ever drilled for spacing common to another gun maker's use? I'd like to know if Phil's sight is 1.125" Marlin, or 1.5" Stevens? I think that info would confirm if it's a Stevens or not for sure. Heck, maybe it's got an extra hole under that spring, which would indicate a Stevens base modified to fit his Marlin!

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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #24 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 4:51pm	Print Post
	Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:31am: Changing/providing custom screw spacing in a sight base is a trivial detail. Easily done. When there's a long, flat spring in the base, I'd guess that a spacing conversion while possible would no longer be "trivial". ... Bill Lawrence Why would it no longer be "trivial", Bill? If the spring has the same basic specs (soft spring stock material, thickness, width, etc) except possibly for length, where is the problem to shorten a flat spring in its soft state, then toss it in the heat-treat oven right along with the regular big batch of standard length springs that have to be heated and quenched to make them hard, and then be drawn back at a lower temperature (tempered) right along with the big batch of standard length springs? Where would all the fuss, muss and onerous trouble you seem to claim must occur to get a shortened flat spring actually take place at? And don't forget that as a shotgun, rifle and pistol manufacturer of multiple models that claimed to sell their products the world over, Stevens had long-term experience making one hell of a large variety and quantity of springs for all of their products. Even their rear barrel dovetail sporting sights with elevators used spring stock material.
	« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2019 at 5:19pm by BP »
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11515 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #25 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:09pm	Print Post
	marlinguy wrote on Oct 7^th, 2019 at 4:45pm: I don't believe most gun makers also made their own sights. I believe that sights were made to specs given by each gun maker to jobbers who built sights in large quantities for the various makers. Some makers had unique sights, while others shared common sights. It's not unusual to see front and rear sights for several gun makers with identical style sights. If they were making them themselves, each would be unique to that maker. That doesn't mean that all maker's sights are the same, but there are numerous examples of gun sights that indeed are the same, and appear to be made by the same supplier. If a gun company made their own sights, then special ordering a sight with a different spacing wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. But I've never seen a sight that was in the style for a particular maker ever drilled for spacing common to another gun maker's use? I'd like to know if Phil's sight is 1.125" Marlin, or 1.5" Stevens? I think that info would confirm if it's a Stevens or not for sure. Heck, maybe it's got an extra hole under that spring, which would indicate a Stevens base modified to fit his Marlin! You and Maxine Waters got a lot in common..........

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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rkba2nd Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1945 Location: earth Joined: Feb 16^th, 2009	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #26 - Oct 7^th, 2019 at 11:37pm	Print Post
	I was told that the large gunmakers, winchester, Marlin, Remington and Stevens manufactured their own sights, but made others available if desired by the customer. Smaller companies, such as Bullard, used sights of other manufacture as not profitable to make their own. The sight in question certainly appears to be Stevens and may have been altered to fit a Marlin. Hard to tell, not having it in hand. Carry on!

	rkba2nd
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16273 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #27 - Oct 8^th, 2019 at 10:04am	Print Post
	rkba2nd wrote on Oct 7^th, 2019 at 11:37pm: I was told that the large gunmakers, winchester, Marlin, Remington and Stevens manufactured their own sights, but made others available if desired by the customer. Smaller companies, such as Bullard, used sights of other manufacture as not profitable to make their own. The sight in question certainly appears to be Stevens and may have been altered to fit a Marlin. Hard to tell, not having it in hand. Carry on! If this was true, then how do you explain that Remington, Marlin, Savage all have identical Rocky Mountain silver blade front sights, and buckhorn rear sights? Even the early Ballard and 1881 Marlins used a Rocky Mountain buckhorn rear with the little ears at the base that are also found on early Remingtons. And Savage being later used identical sights used on late 1890's Marlin repeaters. Either they were all made by one sight maker, or one of the gun makers made them for themselves, and sold them to other gun makers.

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Online Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16273 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #28 - Oct 8^th, 2019 at 10:06am	Print Post
	BP wrote on Oct 7^th, 2019 at 4:51pm: Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 7^th, 2019 at 9:31am: Changing/providing custom screw spacing in a sight base is a trivial detail. Easily done. When there's a long, flat spring in the base, I'd guess that a spacing conversion while possible would no longer be "trivial". ... Bill Lawrence Why would it no longer be "trivial", Bill? If the spring has the same basic specs (soft spring stock material, thickness, width, etc) except possibly for length, where is the problem to shorten a flat spring in its soft state, then toss it in the heat-treat oven right along with the regular big batch of standard length springs that have to be heated and quenched to make them hard, and then be drawn back at a lower temperature (tempered) right along with the big batch of standard length springs? Where would all the fuss, muss and onerous trouble you seem to claim must occur to get a shortened flat spring actually take place at? And don't forget that as a shotgun, rifle and pistol manufacturer of multiple models that claimed to sell their products the world over, Stevens had long-term experience making one hell of a large variety and quantity of springs for all of their products. Even their rear barrel dovetail sporting sights with elevators used spring stock material. Spring length isn't a problem. The issue is the recess the spring fits into. A base made exclusively for a Stevens 1.5" spacing has a longer recess than a base made for a Marlin 1.5" recess. Shorten the spring, and the base, and the back edge of the recess would then be open with no lip where it used to end.

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Bill Lawrence Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1037 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Tang sight ID Reply #29 - Oct 8^th, 2019 at 2:49pm	Print Post
	Spring length isn't a problem. The issue is the recess the spring fits into. A base made exclusively for a Stevens 1.5" spacing has a longer recess than a base made for a Marlin 1.5" recess. Shorten the spring, and the base, and the back edge of the recess would then be open with no lip where it used to end. Thanks, Vall, for being more explicit than I was. Bill Lawrence


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