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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Enlarging bullet mould cavity (Read 10520 times)
JLouis
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #15 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 10:34am
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I give you credit for trying being aware of how it could turn out and the best way to learn by your own personal experience.
  

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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #16 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 11:23am
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I never lapped a mold, but, as Jess mentioned, I tried that beagling on an old Winchester mold for my trials of bullets. It was just a little undersized for my rifle's preferences, so what the heck.
I had aluminum tape and the mold was actually out of round anyhow. On the sides of the partings it was bigger than the across way. So, the 'beagling' actually improved the overall roundness- but it didn't shoot worth a hoot in my rifle that way either. Worth the try to find out, though.
  
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #17 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 11:47am
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I lapped an aluminum mold once and it went extremely easy, and fast. Have to really watch out to not remove too much since it laps so easily.
I didn't need more than a couple thousandths, so not sure what would happen if more was needed? I only lapped the base band and not anything higher.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #18 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 1:41pm
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I could see how a cherried mould might be out of round, but the way Accurate and NOE do it, in a CNC lathe, I can't see how the mould could be anything BUT round.  I'll have to dig out one of my father's old Lyman moulds and do a trial.  Of late I've only been casting in new CNC cut moulds.

I also can't see how lapping wouldn't improve a mould that started out seriously out of round.  The lap just has to bear more heavily on the small diameter and if anything not cut at all on the big diameter.  'Course if you're starting out with an out-of-round bullet cast in that mould, you'll never get it started unless you start with the mould not fully closed. 

So maybe the best practice would be to size the lap to maybe .001" over the smaller diameter, to make it round before you start lapping with it.
« Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2019 at 1:57pm by uscra112 »  

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JLouis
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #19 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 3:14pm
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Would not the soft round lead lap it being the softer material first be lapped into the out of round shape of the mould cavity before it actually starts lapping the mould cavity material. When lapping the lap itself would need to be harder than the material it is trying to remove for it to maintain its shape. Or there is in no hope in trying to turn something out of round to now possibly becoming round or at least close too.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #20 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 3:31pm
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JLouis wrote on Jun 17th, 2019 at 3:14pm:
Would not the soft round lead lap it being the softer material first be lapped into the out of round shape of the mould cavity before it actually starts lapping the mould cavity material. When lapping the lap itself would need to be harder than the material it is trying to remove for it to maintain its shape. Or there is in no hope in trying to turn something out of round to now possibly becoming round or at least close too.


Machinists have known for 200 years that it's the other way 'round.  The abrasive embeds in the softer material, and proceeds to cut the harder one.  When lapping steel, cast iron is commonly used.  When lapping small holes, brass "split laps" are common.  They look like an oversized needle - a wedge is used in the eye to expand them as needed.  

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Just one of hundreds of hits I got from searching >lapping small holes<

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TOLERANCES Most tool work can be lapped straight and round to 25 millionths of an inch. (.000025"). Gage work type parts can be held to 2 - 3 millionths of an inch if the material is stable enough.


When I was in the machine tool industry, I watched a man improving the accuracy of a long Acme-thread leadscrew by lapping it with a bronze lap. This bit of magic goes way back to Jos. Whitworth. We also lapped the hardened steel sleeve bushings in deVlieg spindles, using a complex cast iron lap.  The bars were also lapped to size and cylindricity, but we had deVlieg do that.   
  

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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #21 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 3:39pm
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One error novices make is to put a slurry of compound into the hole.  This is absolutely the worst thing to do.  The lap is "charged" by rolling it with some abrasive between two hard plates to press particles of abrasive into the lap.  The lap is then washed clean of any excess before it is put to work.  The only laps that work with a slurry in the hole are the needle type I described above.  But when diamond abrasive is used, even these are "charged" before they are put to use.  Diamond is too expensive to just throw around willy-nilly.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #22 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 4:37pm
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Why it didn't occur to me until now I can't fathom.

Ordinary Lead is too soft for lapping cast iron.  Cast your laps from Cerrosafe, or at least monotype.

Hope I remember this when next I need to lap out a mould.
  

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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #23 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 4:52pm
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All I did was roll the bullet on a thin layer of compound,
As to not get any in grooves . I think more than the lead being to soft , is When starting with a bullet from an out of round mould
It will never go right. Plus the tiny bit of compound getting between the mold blocks is very difficult to stop. Just my thoughts

Doug
  
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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #24 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 5:42pm
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I agree that, given that the mould was already so bad,you had a tough row to hoe.  Sizing the lap as I suggested might have helped, but it's water under the bridge now. 

I'm still curious to know whether the bore in your Stevens is really that big!
  

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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #25 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 7:19pm
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Thank you USCRA 112 for explaining about a Lap needs to be softer the the material being lapped. I cringe when I hear some one "Lapping" in a Action by assembling it and throwing some abrasive at it and working it till it is smooth.   Reading in Machinist Handbook about lapping and there is a discussion of the pros and cons of different materials to lap with.  Lead seemed to be fine for certain jobs but it looses its shape quickly.  David
  
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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #26 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 7:44pm
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Yeah, you don't hear about so much anymore, since the Bubbas are all off playing with their plastic pistols and AR/AK whatchamacallits.  But it used to be pretty common.  One thing I admit to having done a couple of times is to lap the bearing surfaces of bolt lugs.  Equalizing the bearing did help a Rem 700 that I was enamored of some decades ago.  Getting all the compound out is a real problem, though. I don't positively KNOW that I ever got it all.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #27 - Jun 17th, 2019 at 8:03pm
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Summing up, it seems to me that the proper lap is of the hardest lead available, for longevity of the lap, and it ought to be sized round to no more than .001" over the smallest diameter, if the subject mould is truly out of round. So long as there isn't any radial force being put on the lap, that should work to bring the mould back to a round(er) form.   

One thing I'd be careful of when measuring bullets cast in the mould to ascertain roundness.  The mould has to be closing TIGHT, or you'll certainly get out-of-round bullets that aren't the mould's fault.

Same when lapping.  If the mould isn't closed 100% tight, you're making it out-of-round with your lapping.   

  

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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #28 - Jun 18th, 2019 at 8:51am
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I have a very nice all original 44.5 with a butiful looking bore ,
My father just got a all original 52 with all original numbers matching perfect bore also.
I've slugged both barrels with a .321 sized bullet and we get
Vary little riffling grooves on the slug, ( 2 slight taps with a small plastic hammer and it's all the way in ).both rifles are 32-40
Personally I have never had this many problems loading all my big 
Cartridge Guns as these little ones. Undecided. I have shot only the 44.5 so far with a sized.321 bullet and could not get any better groops 
Than 4-5" at 100 yards. I think it needs a bigger dia. Bullet. Oh yea fixed amo, not breach seated.niether riffle will be used for compitition but it should shoot better than that.

Doug
  
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Re: Enlarging bullet mould cavity
Reply #29 - Jun 18th, 2019 at 9:23am
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Well, that says your groove diameters are indeed bigger than .321, so yeah, try a bigger bullet until you get a better print of the grooves.   Or make a Cerrosafe cast, which will get the answer in one try. 
  

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