My take home from the Denver Show. Also at the Denver Show was Dan Woods, the author of the beautiful 3 volume cased set of books on Frank Wesson, his patents, his pistols and his rifles. So here goes the data on this two trigger from the beginning. The 24 3/4 inch barrel bears the Wesson name and the patent dates of 1859 and 1862 (these started out as Civil War rimfire carbines.) The front "trigger" when pulled with the hammer at half cock as in the photos drops the barrel to the loading position. If you look along the left side of the barrel you will see a slot in which works the barrel stop. This is part of the 1862 part of the patent I believe (pre this the barrels dropped open without stopping.) I think the other part of the 1862 patent can be seen on the right side of the barrel in the second photo - the manual extractor (spring loaded.) The Type 4 (built from 1872 to 1888) includes the April 9, 1872 patent of the adjustable firing pin/actuator to permit the use of rimfire or centerfire ammo. You might be able to make out the date on the side of the hammer. On the right side photo you can see the two screws that permit the adjustment. Removing the top screw permits the rimfire pin to be rotated slightly up and out of action and retained there by replacing the screw in the second hole uncovered by the movement as in the photos. This position of the rimfire pin permits the breast of the hammer to contact the centrally positioned and spring loaded centerfire pin. This system was in the early Type 4s probably dating the rifle to the early 1870s. There were several versions on the convertible up through 1888.  The left side photo shows the lollipop tang sight rotated 90 degrees to show the sliding adjustable windage strip. Loosening the thin knurled locking ring at the top of the base allows the peep's fine threaded post to be rotated 360 degrees to adjust the elevation. The right side photo shows the peep in shooting position but folded down 90 degrees for stowage or to permit cleaning rod access. The front sight is the small target globe with fine bead on a post. The rifle weighs 7 pounds 7 ounces. Dan explained the nice wood to be because there was an organ factory also in Worcester, Massachusetts, that used fine wood in their organs. Frank found that they were burning their large scraps so he traded them good firewood for their "scraps". About 7500 made. More in the next post.

nice find.

Aaron

Thanks, Craig, I had no idea that existed. Sounds as if it would be like Everlasting brass and easier to deal with the undersized bullets in it plus I could shorten it a little if needed. Starline makes it and Midway carries it. No sweat.

So I did a chamber cast. Rim is .525. Case has a slight taper from .468 at the head to .458 at the mouth and the length is 1.60. The throat is .330 long and meets the lands at about .421 (remember 5 grooves.) There should be no trouble using the Starline 445 Super Mag brass trimmed to 1.60 if necessary (they list the length at 1.60 to 1.61.) Not shown on the chart, but the diameter of the freebore in front of the case is .443. What the heck?

Also, further, what is the diameter of that freebore area
at the case mouth and at the beginning of the leade.
That is the diameter of bullet you should be looking for
beltfed/arnie

Chris Christensen knows as much as anybody about Wesson’s.  He’s on the Forum as RGChristensen. I am sure he would be happy to help.

He’s the Schuetzen Master  at Columbia & Shoots one regularly 

Boats

I wouldn't size to the freebore. I'd simply seat the bullet out farther until it touches the lands.

Yes, I've never seen one of those! You know that Wesson also made some shot guns and some doubles.

A Frank Wesson rifle has been on Gun Broker for a few months with no bids.  Still wondering why it hasn't sold.  David

I had a look at all the Frank Wesson 2 trigger rifles and saw nothing but large caliber rimfires. Are you looking at one of the pocket rifles?

oneatatime wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 2:11pm:


YUP

It is fun stuff. I've developed an easy system for preparing the brass and I'm ready to start loading for the initial firing. I'll get into that when I move over to the reloading thread but I will say that I checked the full case capacity with Swiss 1 1/2 vs a 44-40 case and came up with 43.7 grains for the 44-40 and 50.8 grains for the un fire formed 44 Wesson Extra Long.

Yeah, I just chucked a spare 44-40 M die in the drill press and filed and sanded it down (almost too much.) It goes quick. All loaded up now and just waiting for the rain to stop.

I just read through this thread again to see if I had missed anything and there were a couple of things I wanted to mention. One is that the rifling is left hand twist (1 in 40) and the other is that I asked Tom at Accurate make me a 42-240B mould and reduce the as cast diameter slightly so as to get closer to and just over .421 when cast in 1 to 20. He did it, of course. This bullet has a shank long enough to have most of the base band seated in the case and have the front band touching the rifling thus spanning the rather large freebore. Works perfectly. I thought I would throw in a closer shot of the open action taken with my new, to me-from me-love me, Christmas camera.

buffalo arms   baco  will make any size expanders for a resonable price   art

Well, it just got odder. All these months I have been happily shooting 445 Super Mag brass in spite of it being undersized in the head and generally loose in the chamber but being accurate because of having the bullet out to the rifling. Sure, I get a little blow by in the high forehead coming out of the slot for the rimfire pin but not really a problem. But, I still wondered what Wesson was thinking in doing the oversized chamber and undersized bore for what I was assuming was supposed to be a 44 Wesson Extra Long (mainly because of the 1.6 inch chamber length). Then the lightning struck. I had just gotten a copy of The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions and was flipping through it when I happened to stop on a page that had the 44-40 Extra Long. It was 1.6 inches long and the correct head size for the chamber and a bullet diameter much closer to my barrel. It looks like a 44-40 with a longer distance to shoulder and a longer neck, What the heck, I took a loaded 44-40 (no I wasn't going to shoot it!) and it just dropped in the chamber. Shazam! OK, now to prove it. My WalMart was fresh out of 44-40 Extra Longs so I was going to have to make some. The Manual said take 444 Marlin brass, cut it to 1.6 inches, full length size it and trim to length. Burntwater came to my aid and answered my plea for a couple of 444 Marlin cases. I made a jig for my mini chop saw and cut them to 1.6 inches, lubed them up, gave then a touch of a 44-40 WCF seating die to get the mouth tapered just enough to get them in a 44-40 WCF sizing die (anyone ever run across a 44-40 Extra Long sizing die?) with the decapper removed and gradually ran them all the way home backing out and resmearing the lube along the way. So at this point I had a 44-40 with a really long neck. Now, the first real test. They dropped right in the chamber. The next real test will be to fire them and see what they come out like - of course, that should be looking like the chamber cast. Looks like Frank Wesson made a rifle for the then new 44-40 Extra Long. Actually, COW has a shadowy image and says they exist but no one is sure what rifle ever used them. I know of one! To be continued in the reloading section.

That’s a good tale, and I hope you will share photos of some completed cases and loaded rounds. The rifle itself is quite quirky and interesting, and the .44-40 XL chambering makes it even more so!

While my rifle is definitely chambered in 44-40 (Extra) Long now, I'm becoming convinced that it did not leave the factory that way but met that reamer sometime in the distant past. For one thing, the rifle is RF/CF convertible and there was never an RF equivalent for the 44-40 XL. So, what was it back in its youth? Wesson 44s used bullets that were really 44s (not like the 44-40 and our modern 44s which use .427 or so). My barrel (which is original other than the chamber) is in the low to mid 42s. That brings us to a very rare Wesson cartridge, the 40-40 Wesson. There is a gentleman on this site who actually has a 2-trigger Wesson in 40-40 Wesson. Now, in spite of the "40", the 40-40 Wesson uses bullets in the low 42s and because of its case diameter and 1.6 inch length could shoot most any of the low powered 44 RFs like 44 Henry. If a guy had a 40-40 Wesson and ammo was no longer available or wanted something with a little more oomph he would need something with a case that would at least equal the 1.6 inch length to clean up the chamber and that would use the 42's barrel. That didn't leave much choice except the 44-40 XL and that is my current theory and one I think is fortunate because now 44-40 XL brass is a lot easier to make than 40-40 Wesson;-)

John, there are 2 threads: the original Feeding the Wesson 44 Extra Long (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) and Feeding the 44-40 Extra Long (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links).

After reading William Curry's excellent article on the 38-40/44-40 in the current Black Powder News, I was able to contact him and I think he has solved the 44-40 XL mystery. So the rifle was originally a 44 Wesson XL (which makes perfect sense with the RF/CF capability of the type 4 Wesson and the .419 barrel). Eventually the owner was unable to get any more of that ammo and had a 44-40 reamer run into the chamber. Now he could use 44-40 XL ammo/brass which when passed away as such opened up the use of 5 in 1 brass resized in 44-40 dies. Presto, the short cut to what I'm doing now. Thank you, Bill!