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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle (Read 23242 times)
oneatatime
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Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
May 20th, 2019 at 9:35pm
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My take home from the Denver Show. Also at the Denver Show was Dan Woods, the author of the beautiful 3 volume cased set of books on Frank Wesson, his patents, his pistols and his rifles. So here goes the data on this two trigger from the beginning. The 24 3/4 inch barrel bears the Wesson name and the patent dates of 1859 and 1862 (these started out as Civil War rimfire carbines.) The front "trigger" when pulled with the hammer at half cock as in the photos drops the barrel to the loading position. If you look along the left side of the barrel you will see a slot in which works the barrel stop. This is part of the 1862 part of the patent I believe (pre this the barrels dropped open without stopping.) I think the other part of the 1862 patent can be seen on the right side of the barrel in the second photo - the manual extractor (spring loaded.) The Type 4 (built from 1872 to 1888) includes the April 9, 1872 patent of the adjustable firing pin/actuator to permit the use of rimfire or centerfire ammo. You might be able to make out the date on the side of the hammer. On the right side photo you can see the two screws that permit the adjustment. Removing the top screw permits the rimfire pin to be rotated slightly up and out of action and retained there by replacing the screw in the second hole uncovered by the movement as in the photos. This position of the rimfire pin permits the breast of the hammer to contact the centrally positioned and spring loaded centerfire pin. This system was in the early Type 4s probably dating the rifle to the early 1870s. There were several versions on the convertible up through 1888.  The left side photo shows the lollipop tang sight rotated 90 degrees to show the sliding adjustable windage strip. Loosening the thin knurled locking ring at the top of the base allows the peep's fine threaded post to be rotated 360 degrees to adjust the elevation. The right side photo shows the peep in shooting position but folded down 90 degrees for stowage or to permit cleaning rod access. The front sight is the small target globe with fine bead on a post. The rifle weighs 7 pounds 7 ounces. Dan explained the nice wood to be because there was an organ factory also in Worcester, Massachusetts, that used fine wood in their organs. Frank found that they were burning their large scraps so he traded them good firewood for their "scraps". About 7500 made. More in the next post.
« Last Edit: May 21st, 2019 at 7:18pm by oneatatime »  
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oneatatime
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #1 - May 20th, 2019 at 9:49pm
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Let's get to the cartridge issue. They weren't marked. I guess when you bought one new someone told you. This one is a 44 RF/CF. Which one? Apparently Frank was always experimenting and changing things. Ammo could be marked "44 100" The 100 was 100ths but that meant little as to the actual cartridge length, diameter, bullet weight or bullet diameter. Dan said that in 8 years of research and chamber casting 100s of rifles, well, he said do a chamber cast. This one has a 5 groove barrel which makes the usual groove diameter measurement one of those iffy things but it is somewhere between .416 and .421. Lyman back when called their molds ostensibly for these Wessons as 419xxx. Buffalo arms sells 44 Wesson Extra Long brass measuring 1.63 inches long, with a .500 rim and a .434 base. Well, that isn't this one which has dimensions more like a 1.5 inch long .44 S&W Russian with a .457 base and .515 or something rim. Closest convenient brass is oddly 44 Mag which is just a little short but I can probably get by with loading the bullets out. THe bullets will be another story;-)
  
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #2 - May 20th, 2019 at 9:58pm
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nice find.

Aaron
  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
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craigd
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #3 - May 20th, 2019 at 10:14pm
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Nice looking rifle. Maybe, you could take a look at 445 supermag brass, and match the length a good bit better.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #4 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:25am
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Thanks, Craig, I had no idea that existed. Sounds as if it would be like Everlasting brass and easier to deal with the undersized bullets in it plus I could shorten it a little if needed. Starline makes it and Midway carries it. No sweat.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #5 - May 21st, 2019 at 12:01pm
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Sounds like it may be the .44 Wesson, or .44 Ballard. But both are almost identical cases. But the groove diameter sounds a bit smaller than either of the Wesson or Ballard cartridges s they generally run up around .445"-.446" groove.
  

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oneatatime
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #6 - May 21st, 2019 at 5:58pm
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So I did a chamber cast. Rim is .525. Case has a slight taper from .468 at the head to .458 at the mouth and the length is 1.60. The throat is .330 long and meets the lands at about .421 (remember 5 grooves.) There should be no trouble using the Starline 445 Super Mag brass trimmed to 1.60 if necessary (they list the length at 1.60 to 1.61.) Not shown on the chart, but the diameter of the freebore in front of the case is .443. What the heck?
« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2019 at 1:39pm by oneatatime »  
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #7 - May 21st, 2019 at 8:26pm
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oneatatime,
Very Nice Rifle.
A thought on bullets:
a 0.416 dia and paper patch it.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #8 - May 21st, 2019 at 8:28pm
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Also, further, what is the diameter of that freebore area
at the case mouth and at the beginning of the leade.
That is the diameter of bullet you should be looking for
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #9 - May 21st, 2019 at 8:38pm
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That is one fine looking rifle

A. J. Palik
  
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #10 - May 22nd, 2019 at 9:30am
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Chris Christensen knows as much as anybody about Wesson’s.  He’s on the Forum as RGChristensen. I am sure he would be happy to help.

He’s the Schuetzen Master  at Columbia & Shoots one regularly 

Boats
« Last Edit: May 22nd, 2019 at 9:36am by boats »  
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oneatatime
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #11 - May 22nd, 2019 at 1:36pm
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Thanks, Boats, Chris and I have been in contact. Thanks, A.J., I think it is, too! Arnie, the freebore is .443 and a bullet that size seems a bit much to be hitting the .421 barrel. Thoughts?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #12 - May 22nd, 2019 at 4:47pm
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I wouldn't size to the freebore. I'd simply seat the bullet out farther until it touches the lands.
  

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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #13 - May 23rd, 2019 at 9:08am
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That is a beautiful rifle.
I have always liked the looks of those

It would look good hanging next to my J Stevens.
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oneatatime
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Re: Frank Wesson Two Trigger Type 4 Rifle
Reply #14 - May 23rd, 2019 at 12:25pm
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Yes, I've never seen one of those! You know that Wesson also made some shot guns and some doubles.


  
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