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Alloy Percentages (Read 27365 times)

Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #75 - Feb 28^th, 2019 at 1:34pm	Print Post
	John, It happens when the bullets are too hard.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #76 - Feb 28^th, 2019 at 1:58pm	Print Post
	Thank you BobZ!

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4465 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #77 - Feb 28^th, 2019 at 2:16pm	Print Post
	John, the old lead man down in Arizona back when showed me the figures that identified 1 to 16 as the optimum hardness and especially the highest shear resistance (to take the rifling without slipping). He said to add more tin is just a waste of tin.


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CW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 531 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2018	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #78 - Feb 28^th, 2019 at 3:08pm	Print Post
	Yes. More tin is not the way I choose to have had success. I try to keep the Sn content between 1% and 2% and rely of Sb for hardness. In my experience, air cooled 1.5-1.5-97 (Rix Mix ) holds noses about like 16/1 Pb-Sn. Mixes going up to 2-2-96 and more exceeds the strength of 16-1 and also has not been needed to hold the long bullet noses together for accurate shooting in long range applications using large charges of powder in big 45 cal cases. I have tried water dropped (hardened ) bullets but they were unnecessary.


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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3987 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #79 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 9:33am	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote on Feb 28^th, 2019 at 2:16pm: John, the old lead man down in Arizona back when showed me the figures that identified 1 to 16 as the optimum hardness and especially the highest shear resistance (to take the rifling without slipping). He said to add more tin is just a waste of tin. "optimum" being defined as ... ? Just enough and not more than needed perhaps? Just curious.

	Cat Whisperer (trk) Chief of Smoke Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army assra #9885
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CW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 531 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2018	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #80 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 10:53am	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote on Feb 28^th, 2019 at 2:16pm: John, the old lead man down in Arizona back when showed me the figures that identified 1 to 16 as the optimum hardness and especially the highest shear resistance (to take the rifling without slipping). He said to add more tin is just a waste of tin. That would be Bill Ferguson (RIP). He would come up to the American Creedmoor Cup and we would have dinner sometimes. Bill was a gentleman, thoughtful and always cautious with superlatives. Often framing answers to lead alloy questions with "it depends".


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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 3963 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #81 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 11:49am	Print Post
	Never met Mr. Fergueson, but he was apparently a wise man in the matter of alloy of lead. "It Depends" should start every post here on the subject.


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art_ruggiero Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1221 Location: CT Joined: Dec 14^th, 2008	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #82 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 12:04pm	Print Post
	does anyone have experience with 22RF range scrap with or without tin added? art


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4465 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #83 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 12:15pm	Print Post
	Yes, Bill Ferguson, it has been quite a while ago. I spent a couple of hours with him at his home in Sierra Vista while I was buying several hundred pounds of alloy (1 to 20 back then). He was generous with his time and knowledge. He showed me many charts (don't remember the source) and discussed the pros and cons of alloys. May he RIP.


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desert-dude Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 439 Location: Selah Joined: Jul 23^rd, 2013	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #84 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 12:44pm	Print Post
	Good results are the result of an excellent experimental design and a lot of hard work. Having said that it would seem that the first step would be to shoot different alloys into your choice of catch medium, water, snow, ballistic fiber, lightly oiled sawdust, etc. starting with velocities that just make it out of the barrel up to clear deformation. That should give one a nice base point to start from. Tedious yes, useful I would hope so. Love the discussion and dedication of y'all.


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GrumpyBear Full Member Offline Posts: 139 Location: Western,Pa. Joined: Sep 30^th, 2017	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #85 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 1:35pm	Print Post
	desert-dude wrote on Mar 1^st, 2019 at 12:44pm: Good results are the result of an excellent experimental design and a lot of hard work. Having said that it would seem that the first step would be to shoot different alloys into your choice of catch medium, water, snow, ballistic fiber, lightly oiled sawdust, etc. starting with velocities that just make it out of the barrel up to clear deformation. That should give one a nice base point to start from. Tedious yes, useful I would hope so. Love the discussion and dedication of y'all. Ditto !

	Μολὼν λαβέ Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you. Shash-yazhi -bear-cub Brian
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #86 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 3:06pm	Print Post
	DesertDube I did extensive alloy testing for a little over a year and there wasn't any variations that I don't believe I failed to try. I just left it up to the results on the target in regards to group size and after all was said done nothing compared to just plain old lead and tin. Shot some outstanding groups with some of those that I made and tried. But they just failed in long term consistency and what I have always strived to achieve and was continually looking for.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #87 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 3:47pm	Print Post
	art_ruggiero wrote on Mar 1^st, 2019 at 12:04pm: does anyone have experience with 22RF range scrap with or without tin added? art How much deformation and slump occurs with the bullet alloys that are used for "Match Grade" 22RF ammunition?

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #88 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 5:00pm	Print Post
	Quote: ...when showed me the figures that identified 1 to 16 as the optimum hardness and especially the highest shear resistance (to take the rifling without slipping). He said to add more tin is just a waste of tin. Tin is not an issue making 1:16 ... Dan T's recommended PP Money bullet alloy is what he calls the "three-seven alloy". It is 3 parts Lyman #2 and 7 parts pure lead. Makeup is 97/1.5/1.5 and is 8.2 Bhn when cast. After 18 hours, it stabilizes at 9.8 Bhn and stays for a long time.


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #89 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 6:02pm	Print Post
	Quote: ... It is 3 parts Lyman #2 and 7 parts pure lead. ... 3 parts #2 Metal to 7 parts Pb gives a #2:Pb ratio of 1:2.333 Looking at the Lyman #38 handbook, Lyman provided a chart showing that a mix of 1 part #2 Metal to 2 parts Pb (#2:Pb with a ratio of 1:2.000) was equivalent in hardness to a Sn:Pb alloy having a ratio of 1:30. If the numbers in the Lyman chart are correct, and going by the alloy hardness equivalents provided, it would appear that the "3 parts Lyman #2 and 7 parts pure lead" would end up softer than the 1:30 Sn:Pb hardness. Is this correct?
	« Last Edit: Mar 1^st, 2019 at 9:32pm by BP »
	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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