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Alloy Percentages (Read 27377 times)

CW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 531 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2018	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #45 - Feb 24^th, 2019 at 1:31pm	Print Post
	TheGimp wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 11:13am: Quote: Myers ... You Owe, looking back in 9 years of BPCR New Issues, Winter 2010, Issue 72, Dan's article ... A Surprising Alloy Test Result - I wonder if there is something strange with the 96-2-2 alloy. Everything I have read in the past says Tin Lead Antimony alloys age soften, including this article: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) An interesting counter article (patent) for hardening lead alloys. However it only shows what happens to 96hrs. Long tern, I suspect it still undergoes a reduction in hardness. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) I believe that this writing refers to heat treated Pb,Sn,Sb alloys. That is, alloy quenched 212F - Hmmm....water? Right! And and treated in that way, they do loose hardness in storage. However, the same alloy cast and air cooled (not heat treated) gain some hardness over the next 24 hours and some small amount after that, dependent on storage conditions, until, as in the case of 97, 1.5, 1.5 alloy OR 96, 2, 2 alloy, they become very close to being time stable. The devil is in the details.


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TheGimp Participating Member Offline Posts: 49 Location: NE TN Joined: Jan 28^th, 2019	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #46 - Feb 25^th, 2019 at 1:55pm	Print Post
	Hmmm. It would be interesting to see if the two processes produced bullets whose hardness over time would converge to the same value.

	Steven Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they Aren't out to get me!
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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 2602 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #47 - Feb 25^th, 2019 at 7:08pm	Print Post
	John I think you are quite correct about avoiding significant bore riding sections on the bullet nose. At least with black powder. I got Steve Brooks to make me two of his Creedmoor bullet molds, one with a .449" nose and one right at 0.450" to match the bore on my rifle. The 0.450" nose left lead in the bore while the other one did not. Maybe it'd work with smokeless. I learned the same thing with a couple of Buffalo Arms Money bullet molds. Chris.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #48 - Feb 25^th, 2019 at 7:27pm	Print Post
	I use a bore riding 28 with smokeless and I have not had any leading issues with it. The baseband it three thousandths over groove and that might make a difference. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 2602 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #49 - Feb 25^th, 2019 at 7:49pm	Print Post
	John I think the black powder really seems to bump them up hard, well into the nose. At least in the .40 & .45 cals. I have a recovered Lyman Snover in .40 cal that a friend gave me. It was cast in 20:1 and I'd say the majority of the nose shows deep engagement of the rifling. I've heard that smokeless won't do that, but I haven't seen the same bullet shot with both powders so don't really know. Chris.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #50 - Feb 25^th, 2019 at 9:02pm	Print Post
	Very good point Chris and could very well be a part of the problem and thank you for sharing that observation.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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CW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 531 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2018	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #51 - Feb 25^th, 2019 at 10:37pm	Print Post
	TheGimp wrote on Feb 25^th, 2019 at 1:55pm: Hmmm. It would be interesting to see if the two processes produced bullets whose hardness over time would converge to the same value. They sure head that direction but as long as I have been keeping tests going on alloys, some more than ten years, the two never get close. Given the age of the earth and lead, maybe they do converge and we are just here too short a time to see it!


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #52 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 2:33am	Print Post
	CW wrote on Feb 25^th, 2019 at 10:37pm: TheGimp wrote on Feb 25^th, 2019 at 1:55pm: Hmmm. It would be interesting to see if the two processes produced bullets whose hardness over time would converge to the same value. They sure head that direction but as long as I have been keeping tests going on alloys, some more than ten years, the two never get close. Given the age of the earth and lead, maybe they do converge and we are just here too short a time to see it! I doubt you'll be around long enough to see your Pb alloys recombine with sulfides and turn back into a deposit of Galena.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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GWarden Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 317 Location: Marshalltown Iowa Joined: Apr 18^th, 2004	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #53 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 8:30am	Print Post
	very interesting topic. Lots of variables to consider, BP vs smokeless, spire point and shape and length of nose vs. round nose. bob

	Game Warden: what boys dream of being and old men wish they could have been
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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 2602 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #54 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 9:52am	Print Post
	John I will try and dig up that bullet today and post a picture of it so you can see how much bump up there was. I was surprised by it. Chris.


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desert-dude Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 439 Location: Selah Joined: Jul 23^rd, 2013	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #55 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 10:43am	Print Post
	Interesting pressure curves. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) I think the curves speak for themselves.


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CW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 531 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2018	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #56 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 12:15pm	Print Post
	desert-dude wrote on Feb 26^th, 2019 at 10:43am: Interesting pressure curves. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) I think the curves speak for themselves. That is only part of the smokeless picture, so if they speak for themselves, (the pressures traces that is) the fast shotgun powder and the even faster pistol powders, not shown in the link, bracket BP on the quick side with the trace that is shown shown, SR-4759; and slower rifle speed smokeless powders (not shown) bracket that data on the slow side. The full range of smokeless powder has not been presented in the referenced link.


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CW Oldtimer Offline Posts: 531 Joined: Feb 20^th, 2018	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #57 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 1:00pm	Print Post
	BTW - I have seen pistol powder pressure traces but I can not put my finger on them just now. Even if I could, I am not sure just by looking at them how to plot where on the burn rate they equal or exceed BP in the ability to set back (obturate) a lead alloy bullet of varying hardness's.


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7650 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #58 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 3:06pm	Print Post
	As far as obturation goes, I've always thought that the powder granules, hitting the bullet base, at ignition, have as much to do with it as anything. Recovered wads and bullets, show heavy peening from the granules, in my tests, using GOEX, many years ago. Frank

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 2602 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Alloy Percentages Reply #59 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 3:45pm	Print Post
	John here is a picture of that recovered bullet shot with black powder. The alloy is 20:1 and it was shot in a .40-65. Although the nose bumped up well into the rifling, from what I understand this load did not produce any leading. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Chris.


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