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Gowanus
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Questions about Germanic martinis
Feb 16th, 2019 at 2:52pm
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Hi all... I’d like to buy a Germanic style schuetzen that was converted to a stalking rifle and rebarreled in .270 by a Swiss gunsmith in the 1960s.
I’d want to use it as a shooter and possibly for hunting, but I don’t know much about these rifles.

Should the action be strong enough to safely shoot a healthy number of modern loads? I’m assuming the base rifle was originally chambered in 7.5x53.5 Swiss.
Since it seems like most of these were one-offs and custom built, are there any gunsmiths who work on these? The seller says that the rifle will chamber, fire, and eject federal ammo, but not Winchester (it gets stuck) and that has me a little concerned.
Is there anything to look for on these rifles as potential issues?

One of my favorite firearms to shoot is my greener GP 12 gauge. So I’m already a fan of the martini action, but this schuetzen world is new to me.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #1 - Feb 16th, 2019 at 4:26pm
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Federal cases in some calibers are soft, such as the Win 308. The 270 has about as high a pressure rating as there is in ammo so, maybe that could be the reason. But, I would inspect it or have a good gunsmith inspect it, for anything that might cause sticking. Shoot some Federal ammo and the ammo may tell you whats going on.

One of the reasons that cases stick, is the action "springing". The rear locking lug, 788 Remington's were famous for that. After firing, the action, springs back, increasing the headspace, when the preasure has subsided, and the chamber, goes back to normal, the case has increased in length and locks up the action, because there is a lot of pressure on the breech block (blot the case of the 788). The cases, usually stick in the chamber, too. But, if the BB opens normally, that won't be what is happening.

The 270 has a lot of taper so, it kind of hard to imagine why it stick. The other option would be a bulged chamber.

Look for a shiny mark, somewhere on the neck or behind the shoulder. Chamber and extract, a few times and/or mark the case with Dykem or a magic marker to see it better.

Frank



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oneatatime
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #2 - Feb 16th, 2019 at 4:29pm
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If it is one like these, it shouldn't be any problem at all.
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rgchristensen
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2019 at 6:25pm
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     Some of the Swiss Martini 7.5's were chambered in the old 7.5x53.5 ctg, the so-called GP-90.    Others have been made for the modern 7.5x55, the GP-11.  I bought one of the former a while back, partly to see how they made the extractor work for a rimless ctg in a Martini.  Ingenious.
      I agree with the poster who suggests examining the fired cases, as failure to extract can come from many causes, some harmless, others worrisome, but all undesirable.  The Martini action doesn't have a lot of extraction leverage, so even a little rust in the chamber might make a case stick.   

CHRIS
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Gowanus
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #4 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 7:01am
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Thanks for the replies.
I won’t be able to check fired brass unless I purchase the rifle first.
The seller said that the ejector would slip over the Winchester cases. So it may be more the ejector’s size than a problem in the chamber.
If that turns out not to be serious, would an older action like this be able to take a steady diet of commercial .270?

Here are some photos I found that are similar to the rifle I’m talking about...

It has a right side safety on the receiver kind of like this:

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It also has a hole like this bored through the rear of the receiver and the falling block itself, in line with the barrel for a cleaning rod:

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rgchristensen
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #5 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:23am
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Gowanus wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 7:01am:

The seller said that the ejector would slip over the Winchester cases. So it may be more the ejector’s size than a problem in the chamber.

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It also has a hole like this bored through the rear of the receiver and the falling block itself, in line with the barrel for a cleaning rod:

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        If the problem is the extractor slipping past the cartridge, it is probably because the extractor is the original one for one of the 7.5 Swiss cartridges, the bases of which are LARGER than that of the 30-06 case.   
     This is probably fixable, but could be expensive, as the Swiss design of a rimless extractor for a Martini is a finely-tuned device. On the other hand, it could be as simple as installing a thicker actuating "feather". If you are going to use it as a hunting rifle, an un-reliable extractor would be a real PITA.

CHRIS
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oneatatime
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #6 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 12:24pm
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Commercial loaded 270s are pretty hot. Handloaded down for accuracy would be the ticket especially using the heavier bullets. Agree that an unreliable extractor would not be a good thing.
  
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Gowanus
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #7 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 1:16pm
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Hmm... would an original extractor for one of the Swiss 7.5 service rounds be close enough in size to eject certain brands .270 but a touch too large for others?

Aside from this, would the action itself be strong enough for the high pressure .270?
I’m guessing it should be since I can’t imagine a Swiss gunsmith would convert it in the 1960s if it was dangerous. 
Since it’s set up as a hunting rifle, it should be safe for hunting loads right?

The extractor can be fixed, or maybe I just stick to cases that work reliably... The fact that everything located behind the chamber may have been forged and fit in the 1800s with a much less powerful loading in mind has me a wondering about safety.
I don’t want the thought of a catastrophic failure in the back of my mind when I pull the trigger, but I’m not sure how strong these target rifles were built to be.

Is it common for martini rifles chambered in something like 7.5x53.5 to be simply converted for use with 7.5x55 or more exotic rounds like 30-06, 8mm Mauser or 270?
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #8 - Feb 19th, 2019 at 5:15pm
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270 rim diameters should be fairly consistent. Just for the record here are the chamber pressures I could find: 7.5x53.5 Swiss = 37,000; 303 British = 49,000; 7.5x55 Swiss = 55,000; 8x57 Mauser = 56,000; 30-06 = 60,000; 270 Win. = 65,000. In the rifles favor, the new barrel should help with the hoop stress factor. Your choice but I would be planning on having that extractor built up. By the way, I was informed that the 30-06 team ammo for the Hammerli was a reduced load especially tailored for the match.
  
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Gowanus
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #9 - Feb 21st, 2019 at 5:58pm
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Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions!
I still can’t decide if it’s worth buying this rifle, I don’t trust myself to rework the extractor on a gun like this where it’s nearly irreplaceable, and have no idea the cost to have a trustworthy gunsmith work on it.

What would you think would be a fair price to pay for an altered rifle like this? With so few out there that are similar, it’s hard to tell.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Questions about Germanic martinis
Reply #10 - Feb 21st, 2019 at 7:10pm
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Let me put it this way, personally, if I was set on having a .270 and the rifle you are looking at is a plain one like you have pictured and if the price was anywhere close to a used Ruger #1 I would go with a Ruger #1.
  
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