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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ... (Read 7322 times)
BP
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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #15 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:16pm
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Looking at the profile, except for the "harpoon" tip, it looks like it was made very similarly to one of the early un-numbered WRA sight elevators.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #16 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:19pm
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BP wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:16pm:
Looking at the profile, except for the "harpoon" tip, it looks like it was made very similarly to one of the early un-numbered WRA sight elevators.


Later Marlin repeater sights lost the little point on the rear, but retained the harpoon tip. If I recall correctly the Winchester didn't have the harpoon tip, and had some sort of serrated thumb piece?
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #17 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:28pm
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Go back further in time, Vall, to the WRA Model 1873.
Two of those early WRA elevators didn't have the widened thumbpieces like the later production 1A, 1B and 1C sight elevators had... one had the notches parallel to the top flat of the barrel, and the other had the notches at an angle like shown on that Marlin Fish-hook elevator.
« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:41pm by BP »  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #18 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:46pm
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BP wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:28pm:
Go back further in time, Vall, to the WRA Model 1873.
Two of those early WRA elevators didn't have the widened thumbpieces like the later production 1A, 1B and 1C sight elevators had... one had the notches parallel to the top flat of the barrel, and the other had the notches at an angle like shown on that Marlin Fish-hook elevator.


I believe you! I'm not a Winchester guy, so I don't know the details. I just know that it's likely the early Ballard sights were made by the same company that made sights for Remington, and Savage 1895, since I see these sights on all three guns. And later Marlin repeaters and Remington single shots used a modified version that was the same for them, and for the later 1899 Savage rifles.
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #19 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 5:44pm
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marlinguy wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:46pm:
BP wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 4:28pm:
Go back further in time, Vall, to the WRA Model 1873.
Two of those early WRA elevators didn't have the widened thumbpieces like the later production 1A, 1B and 1C sight elevators had... one had the notches parallel to the top flat of the barrel, and the other had the notches at an angle like shown on that Marlin Fish-hook elevator.


I believe you! I'm not a Winchester guy, so I don't know the details. I just know that it's likely the early Ballard sights were made by the same company that made sights for Remington, and Savage 1895, since I see these sights on all three guns. And later Marlin repeaters and Remington single shots used a modified version that was the same for them, and for the later 1899 Savage rifles.

Vall,

You raise an interesting question...  has anyone ever discovered just who that "same company" was that produced the sights that were used by so many different firearms manufacturers?
That outfit had to have a name, building(s) with street address (and mailing address if different from the street address), workers who were there at various times, purchase records for steel and other basic sight production materials, production equipment, tooling and special cutters, etc, and billing invoices that were addressed to the different firearms companies when the sights were delivered to them... and the firearms manufacturer records should have had copies of the billing statements in their own records for accounts payable that were made back to that "same company" somewhere.
Who has uncovered at least some of the records pertaining to that "same company" ?     Wink
« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2019 at 5:50pm by BP »  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #20 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 6:13pm
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Ideal/Lyman and Bridgeport Gun & Implement would be possible "same other company" candidates, except neither goes back far enough.  Or perhaps as is well documented in other trades, especially tools, one of the "big", fully-outfitted companies might have "jobbed" sights and such for others.  Again looking at the timeline. that would put Remington and Winchester itself at the forefront.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #21 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 6:59pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 6:13pm:
Ideal/Lyman and Bridgeport Gun & Implement would be possible "same other company" candidates, except neither goes back far enough. 


But BGI had a predecessor:

"The Bridgeport Gun Implement Company of Bridgeport, Connecticut was founded in 1878 by Marcellus Hartley. The firm was one of the major suppliers of loading tools and accessories for sportsmen. Hartley purchased a company from Charles D. Leet in order to found his own firm; Leet was the manager of the Bridgeport Gun Implement Co. for a time. The company sold tools in sets that ranged from basic to very complete; sets included gun-cleaning implements and loading tools. Most of the company's tools are marked with the company name and a tool number."

From Conn. Hist. Soc. website.
  
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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #22 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:01pm
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Bill,

Cornell has a reprint of a  c. 1881 Bridgeport Gun & Implement catalog...  

Quote:
CONTENTS INCLUDE:
Bridgeport Gun Implement Company 1881
Bridgeport, Connecticut
Expansion Loaders
Bench Closers
Molds
Calls
Cases
Reloaders
Crimpers
Spears
Compasses
Measures


Strange thing is that the BGI catalog contents listing doesn't appear to mention anything about gun sights... 

As far as Lyman and Marbles sights go, the major gun company catalogs illustrated and called out the available Lyman and Marbles gun sights that they were willing to install as optional equipment.

WRA had dimensioned drawings for their sight specifications, and if WRA had chosen to farm out production of component parts or entire sights, it would seem that WRA would have notated who they were subletting the production out to.
If it actually occurred, shouldn't Cody have stumbled across any records of that by now, and word have already circulated among researchers and collectors?

And I agree, the timelines don't jive.
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #23 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:11pm
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I believe BGI made sights for many of the gun companies. I saw a BGI catalog years ago, and their sights looked like what I see on many guns.
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #24 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:14pm
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BP wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
WRA had dimensioned drawings for their sight specifications, and if WRA had chosen to farm out production of component parts or entire sights, it would seem that WRA would have notated who they were subletting the production out to.
If it actually occurred, shouldn't Cody have stumbled across any records of that by now, and word have already circulated among researchers and collectors?
 

If they had survived; but many other records didn't.

But it would be surprising if someone had not previously researched such a well known firm in one of the many arms publications--Gun Report, Armax (both now defunct), Man at Arms, etc.; no easy way, however, to locate such old info.
  
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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #25 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:15pm
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Vall, 

Do you recall a catalog date?
Or any of the various models of the sights that were depicted?
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #26 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:16pm
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Just got home from the range and I'm quite happy with today's initial results with the Ballard Pacific.  I shot it at 100 yards and I have to admit it was tough to get a decent sight picture with the coarse open sights and the size of target that I used.  I think something with about a 12" to 14" white round centre would let me get a white "fringe" around the front "lollypop" sight bead.  (The targets I used only have about an 8" white centre circle.)  Anyway, the 20.0 grains of IMR4198 printed on paper after a few sighters to see where the rifle was shooting, and it tightened up a bit with 21.0 grains, and opened up a bit with the 22.0 grain load.  Again, nothing really set in stone since it was hard to get a decent, consistent sight picture with these targets, but 21.0 grains shows some promise.  I'll have to try some with SR4759 as well for comparison, plus I'll try to finds some targets better suited to the coarse sights.

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Anyway, here is 20.0 grains ...

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... and 21.0 grains ... (and I suspect that the low flyer was me rather than the rifle or the load) ...

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... and 22.0 grains ...

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All in all a good day and a good start!

Smiley
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #27 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:27pm
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Redsetter wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:14pm:
BP wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
WRA had dimensioned drawings for their sight specifications, and if WRA had chosen to farm out production of component parts or entire sights, it would seem that WRA would have notated who they were subletting the production out to.
If it actually occurred, shouldn't Cody have stumbled across any records of that by now, and word have already circulated among researchers and collectors?
 

If they had survived; but many other records didn't.

But it would be surprising if someone had not previously researched such a well known firm in one of the many arms publications--Gun Report, Armax (both now defunct), Man at Arms, etc.; no easy way, however, to locate such old info.


Considering the high number of sights that would have had to have been produced to supply the demand and ongoing volume requirements for the firearm production of the multiple major manufacturers that occurred for decades, how could it have remained a secret for so long?
People constantly talk... and damned few can keep a secret... secret for so many, many years.    Grin
  

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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #28 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 8:53pm
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BP wrote on Jan 15th, 2019 at 7:27pm:


Considering the high number of sights that would have had to have been produced to supply the demand and ongoing volume requirements for the firearm production of the multiple major manufacturers that occurred for decades, how could it have remained a secret for so long?


A matter of small significance to customers--who's making the sights on their rifles--doesn't have to be a deliberate "secret" to simply be forgotten as times change.  I doubt that whoever's job it was to mount the sights gave any particular thought to where they were coming from, unless perhaps it was also their job to re-order them when the parts bin became low.
  
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Re: Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .38-55 WCF ...
Reply #29 - Jan 15th, 2019 at 9:15pm
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Perhaps we should move this sight discussion into its own thread.

But until or if that happens, first, since the "same other company" must exist by at least the late-1870s, Marbles is out.

Second, except for Remington, all the other big boys are either in Connecticut or neighboring Massachusetts; ideally the "same other company" was too.

Third, there has long been a contention that because of the diversity of its offerings, BGI (and its earlier counterpart?) was at least initially only a distributor ala Sears.  Still, as Vall notes, BGI did eventually market its own brand of at least simple, open sights.

Fourth, Remington was not adverse to jobbing and even went so far as to rent space within its buildings, sometimes for a goodly while, to developers/inventors, especially when the company might eventually make money off them, sometimes even creating semi-independent "divisions" to do so.  Henry Quackenbush and his air guns and Christoper Sholes and his typewriter are two well-documented examples (though only the typewriter becoming part of the Remington corporate family).

Last for now, as any experienced historian will attest, it's most often the things that "everybody knows" that fail to be formally documented and/or preserved.  Plus not counting that fellow who has "written" two books by essentially reproducing catalog pages, has anybody rigorously researched gun sights and their accredited and actual makers?

That's enough for now.

Bill Lawrence
  
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