Its already a thing. Why anyone would pay 5 figured for an MP-5 is beyond me but the class III market is hot and people collect it

It's like with old cars.
The new tuner guys prefer their imports, but they're still car guys.
These black rifle folk are firearms aficionados, just not our style.

I have some alloy frame handguns and black rifles, but I don't consider them collectible.
Love my singleshots and bullseye pistols.

Aaron

There are those who enjoy their own individual interests in firearms and those of us who enjoy ours. I find it difficult to understand what exactly that difference might be or why we would choose to condem what they like to collect or for them us. 
Here is an individual who enjoys doing it for historical reasons and also enjoys sharing it with others. If you enjoy this sort of thing you will have to watch several of his videos to see all of the firearms he has collected along with the vehicles and other rare and historical items. Everything he has is fully operational unlike the government's museums where they cannot be nor are they as complete and I hope you enjoy it.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

JLouis

marlinguy wrote on Dec 28^th, 2018 at 3:12pm:


I think it's the other way around--guys owning 4, 5, maybe 6, black rifles, partly as an "insurance policy" if the gov't tries to ban them again.  (Which will happen the day Repubs loose control of the Senate.)  But not 2 dozen or more, which is not that uncommon among SS collectors.

marlinguy wrote on Dec 28^th, 2018 at 5:13pm:


The 2 doz (& often far more!) pertains to SS collectors.  I know LOTS of guys who shoot blacks at my range, & none of them own anywhere near that no.

Are we about to have another post shut down due to bickering? Its Christmas week guys. Chill out. As to collecting black rifles I know the early AR's have become collectable and some are now over 50 years old and qualify as C&R guns. Don't tell the Democrats about that. Makes me wonder about the one that I have. It's a post ban built during the asault weapons ban. No bayonet lug or flash hider. Genuine Colt Match Target. Has It become a collectable? Makes a decent coyote gun but I actually prefer my 788 Remington bolt action in .222 Remington. One of those low end guns in the right caliber that is way more accurate than it should be.

I thought we had gotten back to collecting firearms.

There are several young folks coming back from places we have never been and some of those firearms mean something very special to them that we will never understand. We have a young man we consider our son who spent eleven years in the special special forces and forced out on a medical. His eyes light up when he sees some of those firearms just as mine do when I see a nice single shot and why he collects what he does. We never talk about where he has been or what he has done we just talk about our guns, how to work on them and how to get the most accuracy out of them. He can shoot the other day he was out shooting a 21/2 group at 400 yards with a 308 M16 style he machined out of a piece of billet. Really no different than what some of the more talented folks here do just a different style of firearm and passion but the love of shooting and achieving accuracy at the end still being the same and just as rewarding to himself as it to those here.

I think everyone is influenced by the time they live in, and the gun people they hang around. When I was growing up in the 1950's it was SAA pistols, and lever action repeaters in movies and TV.
I watched some old movies and TV based on WWII events, but they didn't seem to influence me like the old westerns did. Or maybe it was that the westerns had already influenced me before I saw any war movies?
But my attraction to single shots didn't take place until probably 40 years ago. At the time I began to be interested in single shot rifles, everyone I found who had good information, and collections was of retirement age or close to it. I suddenly realized at almost 30 years old I was really a "pup" in the world of single shot rifles!

Growing up I shot my first Deer with a Winchester 94 3030 when in the seventh grade. But it was also a time when that generation at least in my area was home smithing surplus military rifles into some very nice and useful hunting rifles. I can still remember going downtown to the old Sears and Roebucks sporting goods department and they had cardboard drums full of 1903's and Endfields for $25.00 a piece take your pick. Reinhart Fagen was the go to catalog for stocks and the Hertels catalog for just about everything else and you were pretty set. It was not unusual for a father to build a rifle for each of his sons or to help them each build their own when then became of age and I know and have seen several of these firearms by those who have done so and another type of collectable. 

JLouis

But my attraction to single shots didn't take place until probably 40 years ago. At the time I began to be interested in single shot rifles, everyone I found who had good information, and collections was of retirement age or close to it. I suddenly realized at almost 30 years old I was really a "pup" in the world of single shot rifles!

I was 41 when I got the bug, shortly after starting at Winchester.
So much cool stuff in the Arms Lab.

Aaron

No.
Hope Joe is OK, he hasn't posted lately.

Aaron

BP just as my uncle's, relatives, friends of the family did speak of what they went through during world war two and were told not to ask or to even mention it growing up. The same held true for those in the family and friends who returned from vietnam and now the same for those we know returning home today. So speaking for myself this time I don't understand nor do I have a clue and out respect I will never ask or bring it up but I do out respect sit and listen when they feel the need to share a bit of it. When they do it is more times than not the firearms related side of it, what they carried, what they used, the good points, the bad and which ones they would like be able to collect some day. I hope that helps to answer your question if not nothing else I can share will.

Vall I tend to agree with you and the only time I see a so called black rifle is when I am out at the club practicing and always at 200 yards. Most of the folks are a friendly bunch and on the younger side and most have the same thing in common as myself accuracy. So it's not unusual for me to ask them or them to ask me how is your rifle shooting. So I will have them look through my spotting scope and will have a look through theirs and it captures their interest and starts a real nice conversation. With an offer for them to shoot my rifle always included before it's over and the only thing that seems to turn them off is the price to get started. There are also quite a few young women out now shooting with their boyfriends and or husbands I think due to the low recoil of the 223 and pretty much the same as a rimfire. We also being a competitive club have quite a few black rifle competitors and probably not as many pray and spray disrespectful folks as some others might have. We also have some pretty strict safety rules and being a private club one can get kicked out for life. But what also makes it nice is guests are allowed and all of our matches are open to the public.

I would guess that any of us who served had to qualify with some sort of military rifle at least. Some likely had even more varied exposure to other arms depending on their career in the military, or their duties.
When I went in the primary weapon was the M16, and my first impression was to laugh. Just didn't look like any rifle I'd ever shot or looked at, and I couldn't see anything good about it. But after firing it, handling it, and getting some time with it, I actually thought it wasn't a bad gun after all. But I'm just not a fan of any military weapon, even if it's 1800's era. Military guns don't get me excited, but I certainly understand the interest, as I've got numerous friends who love them, and collect them.

Myself I haven't had allot of interest in military rifles but I have had allot of interest in some of the custom rifles they have been turned into becoming. Most of the older folks I hunted with growing up never used a scope and were remarkable shots at remarkable distances. True markman in my book but it was also what it took to put food on the table and no different than having to take care of the cattle or horses and just another part of daily living. The only bolt gun I really wanted in life all though I don't believe it was a military rifle was a Orbendorf Mauser Model B 7X57 with Double set triggers. The only military rifle I should have bought was a M1 Garand through the CMP through the Club for $165.00. Some of our members actually received match rifles as new and unused wrapped in cosmoline and that one being a mistake on behalf. I do enjoy the 1903A3's but not quite enough to want to own one and the same holds true for the Enfields as well.

Vall if you don't mind it really interests me allot! How old where you when got it, how did you get it, how much game have you taken with it and if you don't mind I would love to see some pictures of it as is. And to finish your story did your nephew end up getting his deer that year?

No hurry on the picture at all just the next time you need to move it out of your way. Growl, River now that right there made me laugh and could dang near picture it taking place and thanks Vall.

I was at the range recently along with 20 other shooters. I looked down the line and noticed that most shooters where shooting the black guns so I walked down the line to see how many there were. Out of 21 shooters,18 were firing the black guns. This is of course my opinion and you are free to disagree. While I agree that we should encourage anyone who joins are ranks I don't see the enthusiasm in them for voting the way we do or that they are even aware of what is going on in politics. Many don't even bother to vote. I remember when the first of the black guns was being developed. I was a member of the old Santiago Rifle Club in Orange County Ca. A company in Costa Mesa,Ca was developing a new concept in rifles. They used our range to test fire it. You know the the story. Colt bought the rights to make the rifle and the rest is history. When these rifles were made available to the public I knew it meant trouble ahead. You don't have to tell me that these guns function just like other semi autos. The problem is in the way they look. I know it is stupid on the part of anti-gunners but it did give them even more to complain about with all these black assault weapons that anyone could buy. I do not want to see any firearm outlawed but it is happening all over the map.

If you sacrifice the Black rifle shooters and their guns, what will be next. The earliest ( Bath school)school attack in 1927 was a bombing, it killed 44 people. Sooner or later someone will disparage the availability black powder. German Pastor Niemoller said "

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Antigunners are only looking for a foot in the door. 

Not sure how the guys I know who own and shoot these "black rifles" compare to other areas. But most I know are very politically active, vote, and are staunch 2nd amendment supporters too. They are more politically active than many hunters, or casual shooters.

marlinguy wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2019 at 8:17pm:


They'd better be!  Their guns have replaced handguns at the top of the gun-haters hoped-for "ban list."

Redsetter wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2019 at 10:36pm:


I'd guess the more threatened a group of particular gun owners are, the more active they become politically.
I know more guys who own antique guns, or muzzleloaders who are not active, and have an "I could care less" attitude. They feel they have nothing to worry about, and wont worry until it's their turn.

Based on what my local dealers are telling me, the only two types of rifles selling with any regularity are the AR-15 variations and the ultra long range stuff.  You almost cannot give away a lever action or a pump gun (rifle or shotgun), side by side shotguns are a dust collector, and most bolt actions attract only the increasingly rare and aging deer hunting crowd.  Similar focus in handguns - high capacity semi-autos with polymer frames sell, but revolvers, single shots or older semi-auto pistols with steel frames aren't moving, with the (somewhat odd to my eyes) 1911 variations.   

If your interests include single shots or other currently disfavored types of firearms, it's a great time to be a buyer but a lousy time to be a seller.

I'm guessing some of this is regional, as the local gun stores around me can't keep nice used revolvers in stock, and tell me they love getting them in stock. Old Colt and S&W revolvers are getting huge money, and wont stay on the racks long if the prices are even halfway reasonable. 
I've owned and collected S&W revolvers for a long time, but rarely buy them the last 10-15 years because they've gone nuts. Common guns like a Model 19 .357 in nice shape will sell for $800 without batting an eyelash. And the more rare numbered models will get 2-3 times that!
My old 25 in .45 Colt with presentation case was $275 in 1978, and now sells for around $1200.

Original single shot rifles seem to be  holding value but repos are not, and it doesn't seem to mater who made the reproductions although a C Sharps or Shiloh will sell better and bring more money. The Pedersolis or Ubertis are not holding up so well. A beautiful Pedersoli rolling block with long range Shaver tang sight just sold for 1K on castboolits. Half the price of of what it cost new. I do think that all single shots will loose in the long run. When most of old guys leave the scene who will be there to buy them. As it has been pointed out, the young guys want the black guns.

Here's a rusty sight screwdriver for $150.
Guy has the best verniers I know of, or an optical comparator, with an SEM.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Aaron

Maybe you keep running into those fellows at the shows who keep thinking to themselves that if they actually sold some of the guns on their tables, they'd end up having to stay home with their wives on the weekends.

I gave up going to gunshows, too much new stuff and chinese junk in a crowded room.

Don't know of any collector shows around Daytona.

Aaron

The plastic autos aren’t flying off the shelves while the other designs languish because there is “no interest” in the latter group.  It’s because the former are incredibly cheap and the latter are being dangled on the shelves or tables as Collector’s Items, Vintage and Rare, in hopes of finding a sucker.  Nobody’s buying, at those prices.  I don’t see the reproductions going for cheap, either, the Castboolits example notwithstanding.

A friend competes with an AR clone that he mostly put together himself.  If you value your time only as a hobby, you might have only $400-500 in the finished rifle.  Any ”Starting Scheutzen” Model, with a reasonable look and feel to the originals, will start at three times that.  Or would need an unusually talented home hobbyist and some time to put together.

If somebody just likes to shoot, or even shoots well and wants to improve, the logical choice is a good example of a modern design.  And the difference spent on a lot of ammunition for practice.

People take a while to develop tastes.  I had hardly heard of single shots, except the Sharps, before I started going to gun shows at age 30.  They were still cheap enough back then to snap up now and then.  Even back then, though, mine was a minority interest; most people were interested in milsurps, lever actions or Model 70’s.

Yeah, it can be disheartening going to  gunshows these days. No great bargains leaping off the tables. Lots of high priced junk and trinketry. Hardly worth the time of the drive or the stiff admission fee. So, why do we go? Because you never know, that's why. True fact, I bought a well preserved 1942 byf Luger below market price because the dealer, who sold mostly all modern stuff, was ignorant of how a salt blued Luger should look. Most telling was his explanation that because the strawed parts were blue, that fact was a dead giveaway to the supposed refinish. Some of you may be horrified that I took advantage of this poor dealer. However, I paid his $1000.00 asking price without batting an eye. I got my pre-model 27 S&W for the price of a regular model 19 because the dealer missed the S prefix serial number and lack of model number inside the frame. Life's tough. It's tougher when your stupid. If you're in business to buy and sell guns, you should have an encyclopedic knowledge of the products and marketplace, just like selling anything else. So, that's why I keep going to shows and haunting the LGS', cause sometimes the hunt is as fun as the shooting.

"Life's tough. It's tougher when your stupid."

gave me a chuckle.....thanks I needed that

Gunfunpow wrote on Jan 4^th, 2019 at 11:53pm:


They deserve the same consideration they'd show any bumpkin with a rare gun he inherited, or otherwise knew nothing about.  To walk down the aisles of a show with a gun you brought to sell or show is to hear one absurd offer after another from the dealers you pass.  (For that reason, I never brought a gun into a show without having it in a case, so as to discourage the insulting offers I'd otherwise be hearing.)  And to sit behind the tables is to hear  many of them boasting of how little they paid for something they just sold.  No mercy do they deserve.

You guys make good (bad?) points about the average gun show atmosphere and the people who sell firearms in general. Not saying their all dirty rotten scoundrels, but most of them are. I have watched in utter dismay as some young kid sells grandad's old rifle for a pittance to some dealer who convinced him that said rifle is just a worthless old thing that the seller won't ever sell because no one wants an old lever action rifle. I've seen it happen too many times and it's just a tragedy. I give a quick "how to sell your gun online" seminar to anyone I see walking the aisles with a firearm to sell. And no, it's not that I'm jealous that the dealers get to buy stuff on the cheap. I just have this thing about honesty......

Marlinguy, I think if I was in your neck of the weeds, we would be shooting and going for coffee most of the time. I think that of quite a few of the folks I've met here. I think we're all pretty much sympatico as far as morality and such. I suppose that's what I miss the most about shooting and collecting, buying and selling at the shows and the robust discourse to be had either at the shows or in the range clubhouse. For me, sadly, most of those characters have passed on or are close to it. However, I did learn early on (like you) that in business, especially the firearm collecting business, it's best to be remembered as fair and honorable.

Kurt_701 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2019 at 4:06pm:


We have a gun store here that probably sells more guns than several other stores combined! The seller told me, "I wont spend one minute of my time, or my employee's time cleaning guns."
He is in it for the money, and doesn't seem to have any interest at all in collecting anything, nor does he even like having collectible firearms really. He's OK buying them at dirt cheap prices, but just wants to turn them over and not spend time on them.
He had a Ballard Pacific .40-85 covered in brown varnish all over the metal. Fortunately the boys who did it removed the wood first! But when we were negotiating he wanted a price high enough that it was in the range of a minty gun. I told him if he cleaned it up I'd think about whether it was worth it. He refused, and eventually came down to a very low price I could live with if the finish under the old brown varnish was no good.
It took me 7 1/2 hours with acetone to get all the varnish off, but when I did it was beautiful. I'd have given him twice the money I gave if he'd had one of his employees spend some time doing the same thing I did.

Looked pretty sad to start.
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

But the first varnish removed showed promise.
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

And even better as the cleaning went further.
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Whenever I am trying to sell a gun at a show I make sure the bore and exterior is as clean as I can get it without doing any damage to the orginal finish. There are good and not so good dealers. They are all there to make a buck and I have no problem with them making a buck off of something I sell them. Knowledge is power and every once in a while I get a good deal because a dealer doesn't know what he has. He would do the same if I don't know what I have. Never lose any sleep no matter who comes out ahead on the deal.

Long Range,

Yep, it happens at other shows during setup too.
Some fellows come in as part of a setup crew to help oldtimers cart their stuff from the pickups to the tables, and then do their own dealing before the doors are opened to the public.

sounds better and better!

Aaron

Dealers don't always get around the shows early. And since some sellers aren't at their tables until after the show opens, it's tough to buy a bargain if the seller isn't there. And even tougher to get away from your table once the show is open.
It's not all green grass as some might think.

Years ago I was at the Western Washington Arms Collector's Show in Puyallup, Wa. and walked down an aisle to see a pretty nice 1889 Marlin at a bargain price of $175. (great even then!)  I quickly bought it, and walked about 40 ft. further, and another dealer asked what I had? He looked it over and asked what I wanted for it? I told him I had no idea what it was worth, so make me an offer. He offered $350, and I handed him the gun. He could have looked left 40 ft. and bought it anytime.

I had a weird one once (?), too. I went into the show and spotted a decent Navy Colt with ivory grip for a respectable price.  But, not wanting to jump too soon and spend my loot just inside the door, I went on to see what could be seen. Got to the other side of the room and spotted another on Ron Ogan's tables that was priced identically. Picked it up and told him I'd seen one just like it on the other side. He told me that it was the same one and he'd just got back to the table with it. I bought it,and have always wondered what I could have had it for if I'd bargained since he bought it and sold it at the original price. Life's harder when you're stupid me.

No, you're not stupid. You got it for the same price as the original seller wanted, which you were willing to pay. More than likely the seller you bought it from walked across the room, offered the original seller 30 bucks less, then crossed the room to his table and sold it to you. Not so bad for all concerned.

My funds have always been meager. I don't mind spending what I need to, but if something really special shows at a fair price, I'll jump. You need to, lest if vanish before you return. I got my first highwall while I was looking for Colts. Walked up beside me in its owners hand.

Rebel wrote on Jan 7^th, 2019 at 10:08pm:


That's the risk you run; but if a few minutes later you spot the item you've been searching for "all your life," & you just blew your wad on a good bargain, but not this thing you "can't live without," you'll wish you'd been slower to reach for your roll. 

By "a good bargain," I certainly don't mean something so ridiculously underpriced that it would be insane to pass it by; but that doesn't happen often.

   

If I have the money, and I find a god buy, and it's something I've wanted for awhile, I buy it. Even if it was the first table inside the doors. I've made the mistake of walking away because it was too early, and then going home regretting not buying the first gun I wanted to buy. Or going home empty handed.
I've also bought a gun I saw early, and was happy with the purchase until later I saw something I liked even better, but had already spent my money. But I'd rather be in that situation, than the first situation!
At the Denver show a couple years ago I had some investments I'd cashed in, so had some play money to buy with. That's not a normal situation for me, so I wanted to be sure to not go crazy right out of the gate. I saw numerous single shots I wanted to buy, but passed them all up until I'd walked the whole show opening day. Then I went back to look at about 5-6 guns, and hoped I could buy 2 or 3 if the negotiations went well. Half of them were gone, or marked SOLD. The other half I was only able to negotiate and buy one. The others didn't end up moving enough on their asking prices. Guessing the ones that sold were negotiated to better prices and went away.
Over the first 3 days Thursday through Saturday, I looked at a Schoyen Ballard probably 6 times, but refused to pick it up even to examine because it was so poorly refinished. Finally before we left the show that evening I told my buddy I was going to take one more look at the Schoyen. 
I asked the seller if it had a good bore, as if it didn't I wasn't going to proceed. It did, so I looked it over, and saw all the hot bluing, extra scope holes, and extra dovetails. The asking price was under $2,000 and I finally made a lower offer, and was hoping he'd say no. But he took the offer and I paid him. Then he asked if I wanted the case and accessories? I was shocked, and puzzled, but answered quickly that I did. We went out to his SUV and in the back was a fitted case, tools, and a 20x Lyman Super Targetspot. I asked him why he didn't have these items inside with the gun and he told me , "They're too heavy, and take up too much table space."
So that time waiting turned out to be a stroke of luck. I got the gun home and stripped it to bare metal. Filled all the extra holes and dovetails in the barrel. Draw filed it, polished it, and sent the parts to Al Springer for bluing and color case. In the meantime I restored the stocks, and put it all together when Al sent the metal back.

Thankfully, I've had better luck than Red.
Sorry you missed that one you've been waiting for.
I agree with Vall and never had any regrets.
Be bold, life is too short.

Aaron

When I see one early, I may make a single offer. If it's not accepted, I move on. Too much to take in to waste much time dickering on something right away. If I still consider it desireable later on, I may go back and ask again if it's still around. Often times it is- though sometimes the price is still wrong for me. I don't get upset often, I don't care if I leave with my money. 
I usually find some not-a-gun stuff to carry away. Tools and antique ammo are good finds. Sometimes a book. Lunch.

That stuff is a little irritating, for certain. I meant gun tools, like good screwdrivers and whatnot. Although, I do have a small hammer marked Winchester, that has a magnifying glass in it- too screwy to not buy.

Gunfunpow wrote on Jan 9^th, 2019 at 12:27pm:


For me that's the sign of a good gun show is how many vendors have boxes of "smalls". I dearly love looking through those boxes, even though I rarely find anything in recent years. 20 years ago those little boxes could almost always provide some little tidbit that made the show worth attending!
I chuckled when guys walked by those boxes with barely a glance. Then I dug deeply and found something precious. I liked that most people didn't dig through them! Just wish there were more of those boxes today!

Flatlander wrote on Jan 9^th, 2019 at 1:48pm:


That's because there's more & more on ebay, especially something with an identifiable "name."  I even see "unknown gun part" listed on ebay.

  I have a friend that found a Pope lubricating pump in one of those boxes and asked the guy what he wanted. He said $15, so he bought it.