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Long Range, Load, bullet Twist (Read 27313 times)

frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7659 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Dec 16^th, 2018 at 2:55am	Print Post
	I would like to get input on what is being used in LR BP matches. In 45/70, 40/65 and any of the 38 calibers. What are the fastest twists, that can provide accuracy? Frank

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Old-Win Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1827 Location: Minnesota Joined: Nov 24^th, 2005	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #1 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 8:00am	Print Post
	Frank, you'd be best off getting some back issues of black powder cartridge news and looking at what the winners post for their loads. You'll get so many answers on this that it will be really hard to sort anything out as fact. 45's are still in the winner's circle using 18 twists. Some have gone to 16 twists and have been very successful as well but most say they can't see the difference between the 16 and the 18. At the Lodi Wisconsin matches quite a few are doing very well with paper patch using elliptical or a slim nose shaped Metford style bullet. I'll let the small caliber experimenters tell you what they're using because I'm not real sure about the twists or bullets but they seem to have faded out. I've seen some good scores shot with 40s on one leg of the match but I've never seen them capable of holding up for the entire match and getting a win.
	« Last Edit: Dec 16^th, 2018 at 8:17am by Old-Win »

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Schuetzendave Frequent Elocutionist Offline Retired Ex-Shooter Posts: 4233 Location: St. Albert, Alberta Joined: Jan 28^th, 2005	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #2 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 9:04am	Print Post
	The long range shooters need a bullet with a nose that will dynamically stabilize over long distances (Money, Elliptical). Heavier bullets have better Kinetic Energy and can travel further distances and also have a better Ballistics Coefficient. Long Range shooters choose a rifle twist that overspins their bullets. (Sg just over 2.0). Also Steve Garbe indicates you should not exceed 1300 fps since increased velocity makes your bullet more susceptible to wind drift up to 1800 fps. Tapered bullets allow you to extend your bullet out to put more powder in the case. Also best to have shallower grease grooves or paper patch to reduce drag. BACO Money Tapered 1st Band: Caliber 0.459 Inches Bullet Weight 560 Grains Bullet Length 1.52 Inches Barrel Twist 18 Inches/turn muzzle velocity 1300 fps Temperature 50 degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard) Pressure 29.92 inches of mercury (29.92 is standard) Sg = 2.17 BACO Money Tapered 1st Band: Caliber 0.409 Inches Bullet Weight 460 Grains Bullet Length 1.51 Inches Barrel Twist 14 Inches/turn muzzle velocity 1300 fps Temperature 50 degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard) Pressure 29.92 inches of mercury (29.92 is standard) Sg = 2.43 BACO Elliptical Mini Grease Groove: Caliber 0.378 Inches Bullet Weight 365 Grains Bullet Length 1.47 Inches Barrel Twist 12 Inches/turn muzzle velocity 1300 fps Temperature 50 degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard) Pressure 29.92 inches of mercury (29.92 is standard) Sg = 2.44
	« Last Edit: Dec 16^th, 2018 at 9:23am by Schuetzendave »

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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 636 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #3 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 9:30am	Print Post
	45-70 doesn't see a lot of action in the long range matches bptr. But those that do generally shoot a 535 gr money bullet or similar. The good ol lyman postel bullet is still a good bullet for the 45's, but doesn't get the glamour and glitz of the "money" or elliptical shaped bullets now days. 18 twist works well in a 45-70. 16 twist also works pretty good in long range, but those shooting 45-70's in long range with a 16 twist are running 3f powder for the increased velocity. 40-65 has a boat load of trouble past 600 yards when it comes to target rifle accuracy, the wind can really bother those slender bullets. Most that do try and run the 40-65 shoot something in the 400-415 gr weight. 16 twist is about optimal in the 40, there are a few running rifles with a 14 twist, but those rifles are pretty finicky as the velocity is a bit low to work well in the 2.1 case. Not many people use a 38 in long range unless it's something like the 38-90, and even those folks that have messed with it fall back on the 45's. If a persons main interest is long range target shooting, the 45-90 is probably the best choice.


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2605 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #4 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 11:00am	Print Post
	I see it pretty much the same way Don does, with the exception that I really like the 1:14 twist in my .40-65. I use a bullet that has three bore diameter bands so I have decent powder capacity. With that said, it's not a long range rifle. Past 600 yards a .45 cal is going to clean its clock on a windy day. Of the cartridges you listed for long range, I'd only consider the .45-70 ( but ideally I'd go bigger ). I'd load it with a bullet with reduced driving bands and use as much powder as I could fit. Or I'd go the paper patch route where you can fit 80+ grains of powder in the case. Few people winning LR matches use the .45-70, but those that do are often using bullets with reduced driving bands and FFFg. I have seen a fellow do quite well at an all 1000 yard match in Phoenix with a silhouette type load ( 69gr Swiss 1.5 ) but that is an exceptional case, certainly not the norm. Chris.


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7659 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #5 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 1:25pm	Print Post
	Thank you, all. What is the fastest twist tried or used in the 45's. I've never competed in LR, so the only thing I really know about it or, think I know, has come from this forum. I had though that there was some talk of fast twists, like 14 being used. Also, what is the consensus on the best velocity, in 45 cal? Frank

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2605 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #6 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 1:47pm	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 1:25pm: Thank you, all. What is the fastest twist tried or used in the 45's. I've never competed in LR, so the only thing I really know about it or, think I know, has come from this forum. I had though that there was some talk of fast twists, like 14 being used. Also, what is the consensus on the best velocity, in 45 cal? Frank Everyone I know uses a 1:18 or 1:16 twist. I'm not good enough to be able to tell the difference. Most of the people I know use 1:16 these days, but some pretty talented master class shooters have said that they see no significant difference. I chose 1:16 twist for my new .45-90 just to be safe. I would try to be in the 1300-1350 fps range, but this will be tricky in the .45-70. You will likely be closer to 1275 or so. Chris.


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #7 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 2:06pm	Print Post
	45-70 at 1000yds in 1874 Sharps... PJ Creedmoor, 536gr, 1:20, BR-2, 1/8 felt, 70gr Meteor Sifted (Curtis & Harvey clone), 1157 fps


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18053 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #8 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:07pm	Print Post
	I know some people who have used 1:16" and 1:14" in their .40-65 calibers, but those shooters tell me the 16" works as well as the 14", and don't see any accuracy or stability gains with the 14" barrel twist. I don't know of anyone using a .38 caliber in LR shooting, and doing well.

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Jeff_Schultz ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 1660 Location: Ransomville, NY Joined: Apr 25^th, 2004	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #9 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:18pm	Print Post
	Quote: 45-70 at 1000yds in 1874 Sharps... PJ Creedmoor, 536gr, 1:20, BR-2, 1/8 felt, 70gr Meteor Sifted (Curtis & Harvey clone), 1157 fps How do you clone black powder?

	"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo “There is no situation so bad that it cannot be made worse." Confidence- The feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #10 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 5:19pm	Print Post
	Frank, Bill Crane had Douglas make a special run of 16s for the rifles he made up to take to Wimbleton. They won it

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 636 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #11 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 7:41pm	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Dec 16^th, 2018 at 1:25pm: Thank you, all. What is the fastest twist tried or used in the 45's. I've never competed in LR, so the only thing I really know about it or, think I know, has come from this forum. I had though that there was some talk of fast twists, like 14 being used. Also, what is the consensus on the best velocity, in 45 cal? Frank I have 45-90's one with 18 twist and one with 16, the 16 will run a little longer bullet to 1000 yards than the 18, but it's pretty material in the end. Velocity requirements at some ranges for long range target match stipulate 45 caliber 500+ grain bullets doing a minimum of 1200 fps. That's not a hard level to reach with Olde Eynsford or Swiss powders and 500-535 grain bullets. Somewhere around 1250 is about ideal with that weight of bullet when the target distance starts stretching out past 600 yards.


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rodneys Oldtimer Offline Posts: 709 Location: Central Oklahoma Joined: Mar 2^nd, 2015	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #12 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 8:30pm	Print Post
	I had heard the Canadians were using a 14 inch twist with duplex loads to get 1300 FPS plus. This was a few years ago.


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GT Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2368 Location: Northeast Wyoming Joined: Jun 28^th, 2015	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #13 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 8:32pm	Print Post
	Frank, I spent last season trying to make a 38-72 work, with up to a 360 gr money just to pacify my curiosity. It did real well to 500 yds in most conditions, some significant wind even, beyond that the frustration level went out of sight. The year before that, I tried a 40-82 and did quite well with that out to 800 in most conditions, 14.5 gain twist, 450 gr money. Struggled at a 1000 yds. with medium wind. Prior to that I always used a 45-90 pushing either a 535 postell or a 600 Nasa, except for the recoil, this is the ideal combination to 1200 yds for me. And because I can - this year my new one is a .44-85 and we'll see how it works. I made molds for PP - one's a 500g, the other drops about 540g and I'll try a money bullet from Baco. I'm giving Swiss a try as I've almost depleted my other supplies. I'm not ruling out a smokeless load for this either, except for the BPTR where I'll try to conform to the rules. If you try to find my name at the top of the pile, you won't - I experiment too much - Wasserburger beats on me everytime he sees me, "if you'd shoot the same gun for a couple of seasons you may be a heck of shot" Hope to see you at one of the shoots. Any one of the Baker Montana shoots are worth attending- there's four of them. Greg

	"To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk" T. A. Edison "The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right" M.T.
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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 636 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: Long Range, Load, bullet Twist Reply #14 - Dec 16^th, 2018 at 8:50pm	Print Post
	Greg you may want to think about Olde Eysnford 1.5 in that 44. Hopefully I get my second 44-90 st, from the gunsmith in time to work loads up for it to go to Phoenix in March.


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