Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Traditional Rifle Winter Project (Read 7997 times)
Dales
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 311
Location: Western NY
Joined: Oct 21st, 2013
Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Nov 21st, 2018 at 12:22pm
Print Post  
Looking for ideas.
I have been using a Miller action  the last couple of years (which has worked well) but would like to build a traditional legal rifle .
Rifle will be for bench rest only . My goal is to have a traditional rifle that will be equally competetive with modern style, Miller etc., rifles.

I am looking for sugestions as to what action , stock design , and cartridge that would give me the best results.

I have a Stevens 44 1/2 , Hepburn ,CPA, and Borchardt actions that I could use but would consider others.

My goal is the best possible accuracy .

Thanks for any help   Dales
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #1 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 1:05pm
Print Post  
Dale's my 32-40 CPA Schuetzen Jr. / often times referred to as the Model 52 has severed me extremely well for that same exact purpose It's easy to work on and the parts are readily available or I should say replaced free for life. If you head in that direction shy away from the through bolt and I will share my fix to you for keeping the tang screws from continually backing out as is quite typical of simply the screw design that is being used. That rifle has met and exceeded every goal I have set for myself over the past seventeen years and the first being the same goal you are now wanting to set for yourself. 

JLouis
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2018 at 1:18pm by JLouis »  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16014
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #2 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 1:42pm
Print Post  
Of course a Ballard action. Smiley
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #3 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 2:23pm
Print Post  
Dale's if you are planning to shoot off the barrel I would highly recommend that you have a custom front sand bag made to fit your barrel. David at Protektor USA made the one below for me send me a PM if you would like to know the demensions etc. and at the time it was only about forty dollars filled and I had it within seven days. For me just the bag alone has played a real big part in my success and still does. All of the off the shelf bags I found turned out to be pretty much useless for my intended purpose and they were all about the same price as having this one made. 

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

JLouis
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2018 at 2:28pm by JLouis »  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dales
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 311
Location: Western NY
Joined: Oct 21st, 2013
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #4 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 2:37pm
Print Post  
John
I was planning on using a barrel sled as that is what I have been using on my other rifles . Why do you not like thru bolt on the CPA ? I added one to my CPA 25-20 and thought my groups shrunk , it does have a benchrest stock maybe that is the difference .
Thanks Dale
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4027
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #5 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 3:00pm
Print Post  
1885 Winchester High Wall with set trigger, coil hammer spring, forearm hanger, skeletonized hammer, bushed Neidner firing pin, and stock through bolt fastener will make a competitive bench rifle but with a bit slower lock time than the Miller.

All the traditional rifles with a hammer will have a slower lock time than the striker type Miller action.

But by the time you pay for the gunsmithing you can buy another Miller.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #6 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 3:30pm
Print Post  
Dale's out this way the several folks in our group who have the through bolts have had allot trouble with keeping the triggers working properly. Having worked on a few it's a real pain in the behind to keep them working if the stock bolt is to snug they malfunction / bends the lower tang and when working properly the stock is almost to loose. The other negative is a lack of bearing surfaces from the stock to the action with just the cheeks touching. I have seen several where you can actually look along the tang and very clearly see the bench below through the gaps. With the proper tang screws installed one is allot better off not having the through bolt and taking full advantage of all of the superior bearing surfaces the tangs will provide when properly bedded. 

Here is but one of the many small groups my rifle has shot with the tangs and this one way goes way back to when my goal was to break the CBA National record. Close but no cupcake my last shot went high and right and no fault of the rifle I knew it as soon as I touched the trigger off.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

JLouis

« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2018 at 7:12pm by JLouis »  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1184
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #7 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 4:19pm
Print Post  
Dales
As a traditional rifle shooter of several decades, following are a few of my suggestions for building a BR rifle that should be competitive with anyone you come up against. A successful BR rifle is more than the rifle, it requires a system approach. This system includes the rifle , sights and rest.
Of the actions you mentioned, I recommend the Borchardt due to its fast lock time and throughbolt stock mounting but don’t rule out a Win High Wall. MVA has new made actions that can be had with pistol grip and double set trigger lower tang.
-buttstock with high comb, similar in profile to the Ballard No.7 stock (Long Range model) would work well
-mount your action to the buttstock with a throughbolt for good solid action-buttstock joint
-slim forestock, as you stated you will be using a sled
-32-40 caliber, you did say a TRADITIONAL rifle
-1 1/8 inch (or there about) diameter barrel, 28-30 inches long, round profile, no taper
-for traditional rifle you will need an externally adjustable scope, I suggest a Unertl or Lyman STS of at least 20X, more is better. I use both brands and don’t have a preference.
-Sinclair Competition front rest or similar, they are big and heavy
-Edgewood or equivalent rear bag packed rock hard (including ears) with heavy sand
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
JerryH
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA Member #10876

Posts: 1240
Location: Easton, CA
Joined: Nov 9th, 2014
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #8 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 4:50pm
Print Post  
A Borchardt chambered in 33-47 would be my choice. A round barrel as heavy as practical with a 1 in 14 twist.

The stock would be more of a personal preference depending on what style you like. They all can be competitive using a barrel sled.

JerryH
  

I'm not a complete idiot, some of my parts are missing.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #9 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 6:59pm
Print Post  
The only issue with the Borchardt is the trigger and what it lacks the lock time and the through bolt just simply cannot ever make up. The problem with the Miller if you don't have the right extractor for the cartridge you intend to use you might not ever find it a friend has been going through that search for quite sometime. And because of the way it works and quite untypical of the others its also a real challenge to make from scratch. I have no experience with a Hepburn so not to vary away from what you already clearly stated as having on hand to work with of which is already taking place the 441/2 or CPA would be my own personal first choice. The Borchardt my second only if you cannot find a good replacement set trigger for it of which I believe BRC still offers and if so it could easily bump it up to being the very best first choice if its in the budget and still available it's no longer being shown on the Web Site? 

JLouis
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2018 at 7:10pm by JLouis »  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dales
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 311
Location: Western NY
Joined: Oct 21st, 2013
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #10 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 7:50pm
Print Post  
The Borchardt sounds like a good choice , I did build and install a double set trigger in one for my 25-21 last year .
Would a Borchardt still be considered traditional if I make a new breech block with a trigger system similar to the Hoch trigger ?
The Borchardt action I have was a modernized rifle(219 zipper) with a replacement buttstock that looks like something from a Ruger #1 is that type of stock legal for traditional class ?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #11 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 8:01pm
Print Post  
Dale's I would first check with both the ASSRA and the ISSA before hand I cannot answer that question in all honesty. And after your comments on your Borchardt triggers it would indeed be a first choice for myself.
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dales
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 311
Location: Western NY
Joined: Oct 21st, 2013
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #12 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 8:03pm
Print Post  
John
When I installed thru bolt in my CPA I milled out a pc. of steel that connects the upper an lower tangs so there is no movment of the lower tang . Is that how the CPA version works?
As to Miller extractor my bench rifle was a 32-40 and I converted it to 32RKS , I just added some weld to the top and ground it to fit , has worked for a few thousand shots so far.
Made another extractor for my other Miller and barreled it in 6PPC just to see how well a two pc stocked single shot might shoot .
Thanks Dale
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #13 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 8:21pm
Print Post  
The CPA is a bit hard to describe there is a block between the upper and lower tangs, side clearance along the tangs generous ending up with minimal stock to action contact points basically being just the two little cheeks being left after the center of the area between the two tangs is milled out to go past the block. The steel block between the tangs is not real substantial so when the through bolt is tightened as should be that block bends and it then bends the lower tang upsetting the geometry of the triggers. The screws attaching the lower tang to the action should be able to keep the lower tang from bending but from my own experience they have not. 

i hope that makes sense.
JLouis
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Traditional Rifle Winter Project
Reply #14 - Nov 21st, 2018 at 8:31pm
Print Post  
Dales on your Miller extractor does it first move down and then back and in reverse forward and then up? I wouldn't mind trying to make my friend a new one from scratch but he feels the geometry would be hard to duplicate and to work properly. He is wanting to do just the reverse of what you apparently did and change it from a 32Miller or RKS to a 32-40 so it can be re-chambered. I personally have not looked it at yet as he prefers to find the proper replacement so I am going off how it was described to me.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2018 at 8:39pm by JLouis »  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint