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Pat_Pryor
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Remington type 2 split breech question.
Nov 13th, 2018 at 10:48am
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Hi all, I am curious on how how this breech block locking mechanism works in this action? Would anyone have any pictures of original parts or can take pictures showing this parts function? Remember this is different from the type 1 action. 


Part highlighted in red. 



  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #1 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 11:42am
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PAT:
       The hammer kinda wraps around the breech-block.   For the block to open,  the hammer would have to bend in the middle.   The circled part seems to be the extractor, which looks to be connected by the same pin which the mainspring bears on.   I agree that it is not immediately clear.   
        When confronted by things like this, I try to cut out paper parts and see how they interact.    One of my great interests is gun mechanisms -- while I appreciate the art and history, the mechanisms are also very interesting.   Clever people have been designing better guns for 5 (6?) centuries or more.

CHRIS
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marlinguy
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #2 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 12:13pm
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In all the decades I've been attracted to Remington single shot rifles the early split breech have been elusive, and I rarely see them at all. I was hopeful when Marcot did his book on Rolling Block rifles that he would cover them, but not even a mention of them.
Of course they were all originally rimfire rifles, but in the early stages of the Civil War many were converted to CF .58 caliber, and .50-70 caliber. I can see how the RF version would work with a split breech, but never seen the conversions and no idea how they accomplished the conversion to CF with this design?
From pictures I've seen of Split Breech Remingtons it appears they were all carbines. At least I've never seen a rifle version.
 
The part circled in red appears to be either an interlock to prevent firing with the breech block not fully closed. Or it may be part of the extractor system? Just not familiar enough myself.
  

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Pat_Pryor
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #3 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 1:05pm
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rgchristensen wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 11:42am:
PAT:
       The hammer kinda wraps around the breech-block.   For the block to open,  the hammer would have to bend in the middle.   The circled part seems to be the extractor, which looks to be connected by the same pin which the mainspring bears on.   I agree that it is not immediately clear.   
        When confronted by things like this, I try to cut out paper parts and see how they interact.    One of my great interests is gun mechanisms -- while I appreciate the art and history, the mechanisms are also very interesting.   Clever people have been designing better guns for 5 (6?) centuries or more.

CHRIS
RGChristensen



Chris, I agree with you, many clever engineering designs make firearms of the past very interesting. Along side of their manufacturing limitations. Which is Mainly why I am drawn to collecting antique firearms. And the outburst of new concepts at the beginning of the industrial revolution make for a very interesting collecting. 

About the mechanism I circled, I am pretty sure this stops the breech block from rolling back before it’s ready to fire which is to lock it in place somehow. Just how it exactly works is the tricky question. 

Here’s a picture to justify why I am asking this question. 

  
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Pat_Pryor
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #4 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 1:11pm
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A better sized photo.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #5 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 6:05pm
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Pat_Pryor wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 1:05pm:


About the mechanism I circled, I am pretty sure this stops the breech block from rolling back before it’s ready to fire which is to lock it in place somehow. Just how it exactly works is the tricky question. 

Here’s a picture to justify why I am asking this question. 



I think it's just the opposite myself. I think it's to keep the trigger from being pulled until the breech block is fully closed. Or to keep the hammer from dropping until after the breech block is fully closed. But just guessing.
  

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Pat_Pryor
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #6 - Nov 13th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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I agree with stopping the trigger, it looks like the tab on the trigger spring either lays under that part or goes through that hole and when it is depressed it would stop the trigger movement. If you look at the other picture I posted you can see the interlocking cams on the hammer and the breech block, without the breech block fully closed the hammer can’t engage or engage enough to make more then a few degree rotation.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #7 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 11:11am
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Some #1 Rolling Block variations had a similar "lever" that was designed to do the same thing. It prevented accidentally tripping the trigger before the breech block was closed.
  

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tdmidget
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #8 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 12:31pm
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marlinguy wrote on Nov 13th, 2018 at 12:13pm:
In all the decades I've been attracted to Remington single shot rifles the early split breech have been elusive, and I rarely see them at all. I was hopeful when Marcot did his book on Rolling Block rifles that he would cover them, but not even a mention of them.
Of course they were all originally rimfire rifles, but in the early stages of the Civil War many were converted to CF .58 caliber, and .50-70 caliber. I can see how the RF version would work with a split breech, but never seen the conversions and no idea how they accomplished the conversion to CF with this design?
From pictures I've seen of Split Breech Remingtons it appears they were all carbines. At least I've never seen a rifle version.
 
The part circled in red appears to be either an interlock to prevent firing with the breech block not fully closed. Or it may be part of the extractor system? Just not familiar enough myself.

Not likely converted during the Civil War as the Berdan primer was invented in 1866 and not perfected until 1867. The Boxer primer was patented in 1868. The .50/70 appears to derive from the Joslyn rimfire and attempts to convert in 1866.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Remington type 2 split breech question.
Reply #9 - Nov 14th, 2018 at 1:12pm
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tdmidget wrote on Nov 14th, 2018 at 12:31pm:

Not likely converted during the Civil War as the Berdan primer was invented in 1866 and not perfected until 1867. The Boxer primer was patented in 1868. The .50/70 appears to derive from the Joslyn rimfire and attempts to convert in 1866.


My mistake. Reading further through Flayderman's Guide it states the guns were indeed Civil War era guns, but the conversion was done at Springfield Armory beginning in 1868.
  

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