I'm re-posting this cause I like it.

Aaron

Maybe work being traded for work? No money trading hands? Thinking outside the box.
Flatlander

It all sounds a bit fishy to me Pope wasn't one who had any interest in nice wood let alone engraving from what I have read. If you look at his personal rifle in Smith's book you would be hard pressed to find one that was more plainly made and the same also held true for Schoyen's personal rifle. Pope was also one who thought the HiWall action to be the very best so it makes it even more questionable being on a Ballard. 

JLouis

JLouis wrote on Nov 9^th, 2018 at 11:49am:


Very fishy; listen on Antiques Roadshow to the "family histories" of how family heirlooms were acquired to know how much credence to place on such stories: not much, & this tale falls into the same category in my opinion.

Cranky & persnickety as he was about his barrel & other machine work, he was not otherwise a vain man, & it's inconceivable to me that he'd have had any use at all for such an over-the-top rifle as this one.  It is, however, exactly the kind of thing that would appeal to a rich admirer, such as Lucian Cary. 

 

That action and possibly it's history is in a past ASSRA Journal and when and if I have time I will dig through my stack and pass on which edition it was in and any information of value if found.

Nice picture and what it sold for. 

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JLouis wrote on Nov 9^th, 2018 at 11:49am:


I recall seeing pictures of Schoyen's personal Ballard that he built for himself. A little plain compared to some he did for others, but still much nicer than the guns owned and shot by Pope that he built for himself.

Although Pope was a big fan of the High Walls, he built as many Ballards, if not more. And that being a .22 rifle would make sense to do so on a Ballard. It may have been Pope's rifle, but my guess is the adornment and gorgeous stock work all took place later after it was sold, or even after Pope's death.

I believe Schoyen's Rifle was a HiWall a gentleman on this site or at least he used to be bought it for under $4000.00 several years back. It was one of the items being sold at one of Rock Island's Auctions or Amoskeag's when several very large private single shot collection was being sold and no one was bidding on it. That's back when several of the Rilfes were selling for $16,000.00 and up and the highest I believe went for $74,000.00 if memory serves me right. Could have been Warren Greatbatch collection there were a couple of large private single shot collections being sold around that same time frame at both Auction houses.

Here was but one and not the one mentioned.
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JLouis

I recall a High Wall mentioned here that was attributed to once being owned by John Dutcher, and later sold at Rock Island Auction. It came with various tools, etc. and was a pretty neat rifle. It also came with a lot of Schoyen documentation telling Schoyen's history, and info on Schoyen. 
But there was nothing attributing it to being owned by Schoyen. Just a lot of good information about Schoyen. That was over 8 years ago, and unsure where that particular Schoyen ended up at? I kept the listing info as I enjoy following Schoyen rifles and history.

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Yes Sir and that is indeed the one I was talking about a friend on the Old Chat site bought it during that time and got a hell of a good deal.

Makes one wonder if there might be a small swiss butt plate under that leather pad.

JLouis wrote on Nov 11^th, 2018 at 12:49pm:


If there was, the LOP with the pad removed would have been too short. 
The gun I recall attributed as Schoyen's personal offfhand rifle had a Schoyen Swiss buttplate. They look like this:

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i had the fugger pope consigned to me from the man bought it at the auction listed here.i sold it in short order and it is sitting in an amazing gunroom with lots of other popes.and he is very happy with it.      tony <><

i will contact the man who owns it now and see if he has been able to put some history with it.he is very good at doing research on guns.let you know when i find out.    tony <><

Amen speculation and personal opinions have been running a bit rampart on this site and it just adds to the confusion instead of the actual documented facts being presented.

marlinguy wrote on Nov 15^th, 2018 at 11:30pm:


If there's documentation, there's no need for the "story."  Aside from a (possible) G&H record that verifies who did the engraving & when, only the "story" has been presented so far. 

marlinguy wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 12:14am:


If such records, photos, etc., are found to exist, then facts have replaced conjecture, misunderstanding, ignorance, wishful thinking, & everything else that goes into concocting an unsupported "story," a more descriptive name for which would be "tall tale."  When reasonable documentation exists (which doesn't necessarily mean that every single detail of the subject is known), a valid historical record has been established, & to continue calling it a "story," as that very ambiguous word is commonly used, confuses the issue & casts suspicion on the accuracy of the documentation.   

More than "a question of semantics," I think: when the cops say "that's the suspect's story," they do not mean they believe it really happened that way--they believe it's been made up in place of the facts.

Bottom line is a story is either true, part true or not true at all and if true it has to be supported. In the case of the Ballard lacking Provenance it's true value would only be that of a nice old charming Ballard single shot rifle having a Pope barrel attached to it. Apparently this rifle sold back in October of 2012 and it makes one wonder what it sold for and this is how it was described at that point in time. It's unfortunate the Lutz notes were apparently not available of which might have provided more supportive and substantial documentation. When you scroll through the few pictures of the rifle there is nothing to me that personally points to a rifle of Pope's personal likings or of one that he could actually afford of which makes it even more unique and mysterious with the work possibly being gifted to him. 

Magnificent and one of a kind “H.M. Pope” marked Ballard action rifle, fully and finely engraved by Josef Fugger and marked “Rebuilt by Griffin & Howe Inc., New York” serial #23122. The book entitled “Lucian Cary OnGuns” circa 1950 pictures this rifle and recalls the story that former owner Mr. Robert L. Lutz’ notes read that, “Frank Bergin at A & F says engraving was done by Josef Fugger at Griffin & Howe and that Joe recalls Pope bringing the gun in personally about 1932 with his picture for engraving”. He also states that the notes mention the rifle was Pope’s personal gun. The rifle shows a 30” tapered round barrel in 22 longrifle caliber showing blue and case hardened finish with a select tiger striped maple checkered stock. The fore end is over sized and elongated with a flattened bottom and adjustable rail for front swivel and the butt stock shows a high rise cheek piece with thin rubber pad. The bottom of the barrel beneath the fore end is also stamped H.M. Pope with C/580/15.9/4-12-21. The frame is masterfully engraved by Fugger.

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JLouis

JLouis wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:


A text-book case of hearsay piled on hearsay, with all first-hand witnesses conveniently dead.  But a terrific "story" that many folks apparently WANT to believe so badly that logic & known facts are dismissed.

Well it still has a verifiable Pope barrel attached to it for what they are now worth and some pretty nice engraving to go along with it for what ever it might now be worth. The single trigger to me is an undesirable feature as is the forearm but it's still a Pope barrel and a Ballard action making it very desirable for some individuals to want to own regardless of the story behind it all though it does make for a pretty entertaining story I personaly don't believe it adds any additional value to it. 

JLouis

JLouis wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 4:29pm:


I couldn't agree more John! Any Pope barreled Ballard like the Fugger-Ballard is not to be scoffed at, nor is it's worth minor because of a lack of provenance. It's value is based on it being a gorgeous gun, wonderful engraving, and of course a Pope barrel with all the proper Pope barrel codes.
Should the new owner be able to document it further, then each bit of documentation will only add to it's value. If he can document it as once being owned by Pope, and discover proof that the story is true, then it will certainly elevate the gun to a whole new level.

JLouis wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 8:26pm:


$21,000+ was the price in the Morphy auction.   

I was only interested in the selling price and thanks for providing it Redsetter.