marlinguy wrote on Nov 15^th, 2018 at 11:30pm:


If there's documentation, there's no need for the "story."  Aside from a (possible) G&H record that verifies who did the engraving & when, only the "story" has been presented so far. 

marlinguy wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 12:14am:


If such records, photos, etc., are found to exist, then facts have replaced conjecture, misunderstanding, ignorance, wishful thinking, & everything else that goes into concocting an unsupported "story," a more descriptive name for which would be "tall tale."  When reasonable documentation exists (which doesn't necessarily mean that every single detail of the subject is known), a valid historical record has been established, & to continue calling it a "story," as that very ambiguous word is commonly used, confuses the issue & casts suspicion on the accuracy of the documentation.   

More than "a question of semantics," I think: when the cops say "that's the suspect's story," they do not mean they believe it really happened that way--they believe it's been made up in place of the facts.

Bottom line is a story is either true, part true or not true at all and if true it has to be supported. In the case of the Ballard lacking Provenance it's true value would only be that of a nice old charming Ballard single shot rifle having a Pope barrel attached to it. Apparently this rifle sold back in October of 2012 and it makes one wonder what it sold for and this is how it was described at that point in time. It's unfortunate the Lutz notes were apparently not available of which might have provided more supportive and substantial documentation. When you scroll through the few pictures of the rifle there is nothing to me that personally points to a rifle of Pope's personal likings or of one that he could actually afford of which makes it even more unique and mysterious with the work possibly being gifted to him. 

Magnificent and one of a kind “H.M. Pope” marked Ballard action rifle, fully and finely engraved by Josef Fugger and marked “Rebuilt by Griffin & Howe Inc., New York” serial #23122. The book entitled “Lucian Cary OnGuns” circa 1950 pictures this rifle and recalls the story that former owner Mr. Robert L. Lutz’ notes read that, “Frank Bergin at A & F says engraving was done by Josef Fugger at Griffin & Howe and that Joe recalls Pope bringing the gun in personally about 1932 with his picture for engraving”. He also states that the notes mention the rifle was Pope’s personal gun. The rifle shows a 30” tapered round barrel in 22 longrifle caliber showing blue and case hardened finish with a select tiger striped maple checkered stock. The fore end is over sized and elongated with a flattened bottom and adjustable rail for front swivel and the butt stock shows a high rise cheek piece with thin rubber pad. The bottom of the barrel beneath the fore end is also stamped H.M. Pope with C/580/15.9/4-12-21. The frame is masterfully engraved by Fugger.

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JLouis

JLouis wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 1:55pm:


A text-book case of hearsay piled on hearsay, with all first-hand witnesses conveniently dead.  But a terrific "story" that many folks apparently WANT to believe so badly that logic & known facts are dismissed.

Well it still has a verifiable Pope barrel attached to it for what they are now worth and some pretty nice engraving to go along with it for what ever it might now be worth. The single trigger to me is an undesirable feature as is the forearm but it's still a Pope barrel and a Ballard action making it very desirable for some individuals to want to own regardless of the story behind it all though it does make for a pretty entertaining story I personaly don't believe it adds any additional value to it. 

JLouis

JLouis wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 4:29pm:


I couldn't agree more John! Any Pope barreled Ballard like the Fugger-Ballard is not to be scoffed at, nor is it's worth minor because of a lack of provenance. It's value is based on it being a gorgeous gun, wonderful engraving, and of course a Pope barrel with all the proper Pope barrel codes.
Should the new owner be able to document it further, then each bit of documentation will only add to it's value. If he can document it as once being owned by Pope, and discover proof that the story is true, then it will certainly elevate the gun to a whole new level.

JLouis wrote on Nov 17^th, 2018 at 8:26pm:


$21,000+ was the price in the Morphy auction.   

I was only interested in the selling price and thanks for providing it Redsetter.