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Black Powder Accuracy (Read 28083 times)

Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #30 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:01am	Print Post
	gunlaker wrote on Nov 7^th, 2018 at 6:06pm: I asked Steve Garbe on the WSU forum once regarding his thoughts on BP benchrest accuracy and he said something to the effect that reliable 24 ring accuracy is possible, but he has not seen reliable 25 ring accuracy. This pretty much mirrors what I see. This fall I will spend a little more time working on BP benchrest on the 25 ring target. Chris. That is what Pope guaranteed with his B loading ML system. That is what I found I got out of it.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #31 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:05am	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Nov 7^th, 2018 at 2:59pm: Sounds like they were fun matches and it makes one wonder why there are not more now taking place. That is a perplexing question. At Tacoma the BP matches used to fill the line. When I gave them up for safety reasons, no one else was willing to take over. There was another match that started using the NRA course of fire I believe, but it never took off and attracted all the shooters that shot at Tacoma. I have always wondered why they all quit

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #32 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:10am	Print Post
	.22-5-40 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2018 at 3:51pm: Has anyone ever tried bore-size breech seated bullets as advocated by Dr. Mann? I know they work in the .40 cal. Next year I hope to find out some of these things...just didn't want to re-invent wheel if not necessary. Those are some very fine black powder groups! When I breach seated the Shoyen bullet that came with my rifle that fits muzzle loaded, it is not as accurate at the groove size Pope style bullet Hoch made to BS. The Hoch bullet cannot be ML. That was a .33. YMMV

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18061 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #33 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 10:07am	Print Post
	svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2018 at 3:18pm: marlinguy wrote on Nov 7^th, 2018 at 1:48pm: I'm not sure I'd call testing done to prove for the individual's use of BP or smokeless, "Fool's work". I think if the shooter is really interested in trying to achieve his absolute best with any gun, powder, bullets, etc.; any efforts to obtain the results he wants aren't foolish at all. My "Fools Work" comment has NOT to do with individual shooters efforts to attain their person best results. "Fools Work" is directed at the rather absurd, to me at least, idea of ever demonstrating whether BP or nitro powder gives smallest groups at realistic distances (100-1000M). Schutzen may be the only venue where rifles and shooting conditions have enough in common between BP and Nitro matches that a direct, statistically valid comparison seems maybe possible. Trying to draw valid comparisons using data from HiPower and BPR matches, for example, seems doomed before it even starts. Trying to get either group to use the other type of gunpowder in the interest of a simplistic, direct comparison seems a real Fool's Errand". There are others shooting long range at 800-1000 yds. who aren't doing so with pointy, jacketed bullets. So it's not an either or scenario. The group I shoot with is almost 100% smokeless powder shooters with cast lead, and old single shot or lever action rifles. The Quigley matches each June are also full of shooters shooting long distance with smokeless and similar rifles. I think many people think as you do that it's either BP or high power rifles shooting long range, when that's just not the case. There are matches like BPCR that don't allow smokeless, but they aren't the only venue outside of High Power.

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svartkruttgris#369 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2980 Location: Colorado, Norway, Sweden Joined: Oct 28^th, 2014	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #34 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 2:46pm	Print Post
	From what little I have read of that Quigley match it is basically a very popular shoot that allows quite a wide range of rifles, as well as both BP and nitro. Other than some safety restrictions, it does not seem like a venue that has anything like the rigor need to reliably compare long range group sizes from BP vs nitro loads. Maybe some individual Quigley shooters do have the skills and rigor to do, but, would they make the effort? Other than perhaps ASSRA, etc. what are the specific, well organized precision rifle shooting venues that might rank as suited to complete a definitive comparison of long range group sizes for BP vs nitro powders? Would they even be interested?


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #35 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 3:05pm	Print Post
	BobZ for several years our club held 200yd. BP matches and there were always some very remarkable scores being shot. If memory serves me right Jack Hughes holds the Club record. I believe they were using NRA Military targets the rifles being used were of the larger bore diameters and all though I watched a few matches I also never participated. There used to be a pretty good turn as well and also a regular scheduled monthy match as I recall.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Ranch13 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 636 Location: East Central Wy. Joined: Jan 20^th, 2018	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #36 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 3:45pm	Print Post
	svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Nov 8^th, 2018 at 2:46pm: From what little I have read of that Quigley match it is basically a very popular shoot that allows quite a wide range of rifles, as well as both BP and nitro. Other than some safety restrictions, it does not seem like a venue that has anything like the rigor need to reliably compare long range group sizes from BP vs nitro loads. Maybe some individual Quigley shooters do have the skills and rigor to do, but, would they make the effort? Other than perhaps ASSRA, etc. what are the specific, well organized precision rifle shooting venues that might rank as suited to complete a definitive comparison of long range group sizes for BP vs nitro powders? Would they even be interested? The Quigley match is a "gong" match where the targets are various shapes and distances. In a "gong" match a hit anywhere on the target, even if the shot falls short, ricochets up and hits the target counts the same as a shot dead center. Gong matches are fun, more social events and a gathering of like minded shooters, than they are any determination of accuracy. Interestingly enough a few of the folks that have won the NRA Black Powder target rifle national championships have also won the Quigley. The Black Powder Target Rifle matches by rule are limited to black powder only. Having said that it is within the prevue of the local match director to allow smokeless shooters to shoot in a non registered match, seldom does a smokeless shooter show up to try their hand at a match. The Winnequah gun club in Lodi Ws does have an "any comers" match that so long as the rifle subscribes to BPTR rules allows for smokeless shooters to compete. I don't think a smokeless shooter has ever won or even placed well at that match, and most if they do come back are shooting black. You might want to contact the BPTR match director at the Colorado Rifle Club and inquire into shooting one of his local matches with smokeless.


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.22-5-40 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 828 Joined: Feb 13^th, 2010	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #37 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 3:45pm	Print Post
	I have yet to shoot breech-seated black powder loads in my .32-40. I have Randy Wrights Schuetzen book...how do you guys reload at range? Do you bring drop tube..and if so, how long? (the one in loading room is 36")..is this length needed for the little .32? I do have a Harrell's black powder measure...as well as a set of glass vials I thought would simplify things to take to range. Thanks!


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18061 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #38 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:09pm	Print Post
	svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Nov 8^th, 2018 at 2:46pm: From what little I have read of that Quigley match it is basically a very popular shoot that allows quite a wide range of rifles, as well as both BP and nitro. Other than some safety restrictions, it does not seem like a venue that has anything like the rigor need to reliably compare long range group sizes from BP vs nitro loads. Maybe some individual Quigley shooters do have the skills and rigor to do, but, would they make the effort? Other than perhaps ASSRA, etc. what are the specific, well organized precision rifle shooting venues that might rank as suited to complete a definitive comparison of long range group sizes for BP vs nitro powders? Would they even be interested? The Quigley doesn't really allow a very wide range of rifles. It's restricted to "any traditional single shot or lever action rifle". That's not very wide range is it? Loads are restricted to cast bullets, and smokeless or BP. Yes it's a gong or dinger match. But if you think that makes it a walk in the park, or no real accuracy required, then look at who wins it, or who even shoots in the top third. Might ask those who say it doesn't require any accuracy how many times they've placed in that top third? And I seriously doubt most shooters have won by ricocheting bullets onto targets. It might happen on rare occasion, but certainly not the norm. And it does take a fair amount of accuracy, or they'd be giving out 8 pins like they were free sample ice cream cones. But there are a number of gun clubs around the country who open their long range matches to both BP and smokeless, and most shoot targets, not dingers. So it's not hard to compare equal traditional single shots with both powders and get results. And it certainly wouldn't require a match for anyone using the same gun with both powders to come up with results as to which worked best, or was most accurate.

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svartkruttgris#369 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2980 Location: Colorado, Norway, Sweden Joined: Oct 28^th, 2014	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #39 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:16pm	Print Post
	Some of us never bought the need for a drop tube. Instead we used various vibrational approaches. It is educational to see how nicely a bit of vibration, even tapping filled case on bench top, settles the BP to nice compact, uniform levels. A fiber or poly wad or two or three on top of the settled BP, followed by either slip or friction fit bullet and the deed is done. Totally suited to reloading case(s) at the shooting bench.


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beltfed Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1826 Location: Central Wi Joined: Dec 20^th, 2007	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #40 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:31pm	Print Post
	And it would not be much of a deal to do any needed/desireable compression of the BP at the shooting bench. beltfed/arnie


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svartkruttgris#369 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2980 Location: Colorado, Norway, Sweden Joined: Oct 28^th, 2014	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #41 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:46pm	Print Post
	marlinguy wrote on Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:09pm: The Quigley doesn't really allow a very wide range of rifles. It's restricted to "any traditional single shot or lever action rifle". That's not very wide range is it? So it's not hard to compare equal traditional single shots with both powders and get results. And it certainly wouldn't require a match for anyone using the same gun with both powders to come up with results as to which worked best, or was most accurate. Responses to two of your points. First point: "any traditional single shot or lever action rifle" Seems like quite a large range when trying to make a definitive determination of group sizes for BP vs nitro. How would you separate effects of rifle design and construction? Easy to imagine that the "traditional single shot rifles" would quickly be the best long range rifles having a strong resemblance to "Creedmore" etc. rifles. Winchester 1886s would seem a likely bet for the traditional lever action rifle of choice. Second point: "So it's not hard to compare equal traditional single shots with both powders and get results." Humm, without getting into details, put me down as highly skeptical. Would "slug" guns become the main competition for "Creedmore" rifles? After all, slug guns were the long range sniper rifles during USA's Civil War. By the way, want to limit traditional single shots to USA stuff? How about the many excellent BP single shot target and sniper rifles developed in England, Ireland, etc. and the various German-speaking countries? What about some of the early European turnbolts? The are as traditional as anything in USA. Then, of course whose BP would be acceptable? Which nitro powders??? Simple might not be so simple. Oh, almost forgot -- what bullet designs -- free choice, or????


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #42 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:48pm	Print Post
	.22-5-40 wrote on Nov 8^th, 2018 at 3:45pm: I have yet to shoot breech-seated black powder loads in my .32-40. I have Randy Wrights Schuetzen book...how do you guys reload at range? Do you bring drop tube..and if so, how long? (the one in loading room is 36")..is this length needed for the little .32? I do have a Harrell's black powder measure...as well as a set of glass vials I thought would simplify things to take to range. Thanks! 18" is all you need. Longer will not make any difference and will get the same results.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Jeff_Schultz ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 1661 Location: Ransomville, NY Joined: Apr 25^th, 2004	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #43 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 4:54pm	Print Post
	free sample ice cream cones. Now you've got my attention! I've never had one, but would sure like to! Are they good?

	"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo “There is no situation so bad that it cannot be made worse." Confidence- The feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4473 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Black Powder Accuracy Reply #44 - Nov 8^th, 2018 at 5:14pm	Print Post
	Guys, you are trying to do apple and orange comparisons. In the same rifle I don't think you could out shoot a developed smokeless load with a developed black powder load. I think the ODGs proved this when they all switched to smokeless as it became available. But, that is why we have black powder only matches. Developing a winning black powder load can be much more difficult than a winning smokeless load.


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