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Which .25-20 was first? (Read 10157 times)

BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #30 - Oct 26^th, 2018 at 7:27pm	Print Post
	marlinguy wrote on Oct 26^th, 2018 at 6:23pm: Just what nomenclature would you suggest Marlin would use on the .45-70 with small primers? I personally don't think Marlin was trying to take the .45-70 as their own, but rather just ensuring the .45-70 ammo used in their guns was small primer. So tell us what they should have done? Not chamber their guns in this caliber at all? And since we're talking cartridges Win. stole. Don't forget the .40-60 Marlin that Winchester did nothing to change except call theirs the .40-65 WCF. Did it really have 5 more grains of powder? Maybe Marlin should have put a few more or less grains in the .45-70 and called it a .45-65 or .45-75? What was it about Marlin's rifle that required the use of small primers for the 45-70, when WRA's Model 1885 and 1886 didn't? Was the 40-60 one of the cartridges used in the large frame Colt Lightning rifle, and if so, did Marlin ever mention Colt's name in association with the cartridge? WRA did so. There's even a notation on page 101 of Hoyem's Volume IV book that "The 40-60 is found with Colt headstamp made for them by Winchester." As far as changing a load by 5 grains of powder and renaming it, isn't that what UMC did when they offered their 40-65 (2 1/2" Straight) cartridge? Was Sharps given any honorable mention or credit for their pre-existing 40-70 Straight case when this occurred? Something I've noticed when going through the Cartridge Sections of the old WRA catalogs is that WRA didn't append the WCF onto the end of the standard load 32-40 or 38-55 cartridges. I could have missed it, but have you seen a "32-40WCF" or a "38-55WCF" factory caliber stamp rolled onto an original WRA barrel? Or were they simply stamped either "32-40" or "38-55" ?
	« Last Edit: Oct 26^th, 2018 at 8:35pm by BP »
	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18053 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #31 - Oct 27^th, 2018 at 9:44am	Print Post
	Marlin's reasoning for the small primers was based simply on extensive and abusive testing. Plus the use of military ball ammo that had rounded noses. In the Model 1881 Marlin they offered for military testing they designated their version of the .45-70 with small primers. But Winchester supplied all the ammo for the tests, and the military refused to use Marlin's designated small primer ammo. During long strings of fire with the magazine loaded, and gun fired as fast as possible, the 1881 suffered a chain fire in the magazine tube after hundreds of rounds. Thus proving Marlin's theory that it could happen. Obviously this could never happen with the right bullet shape, or a small primer, so that's why it never became a problem in normal civilian use. The .40-60 Marlin was Marlin's design, so why would they credit Colt? It was first offered in 1881 in that model, and the Colt version came later. The Lightning came out in 1884, so 3 years later. It is identical to the .40-60 Marlin, and the .40-65 Win. and falls between the two in it's introduction. Winchester did not have a rifle that would handle the .40-60M or Colt, until 1886 when that model came out. I have seen ammunition and boxes made by Winchester marked .38-55 Ballard, and .32-40 Ballard. But can't recall any headstamp saying B or W on the brass. I would have to look, but pretty sure I own both too. I've also seen ammo boxes made by Winchester marked .38-55 Win. and .32-40 Win. The cases inside were marked with the two calibers. and "WIN", but no way to say if the "WIN" was to designate the maker, or to claim ownership of the cartridge?

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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3970 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #32 - Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:51am	Print Post
	I think 'Win' means the one that comes out on top in a competition. Ball is just something that gets used in some of the competitions.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18053 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #33 - Oct 27^th, 2018 at 12:04pm	Print Post
	calledflyer wrote on Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:51am: I think 'Win' means the one that comes out on top in a competition. Ball is just something that gets used in some of the competitions. In this case it means "Win at any cost"

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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #34 - Oct 27^th, 2018 at 4:30pm	Print Post
	Consider the difference in WRA's usage of "WCF" and "Win".

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #35 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:10pm	Print Post
	Did Ballard manufacturer their own ammunition or did they out source it Vall.

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18053 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #36 - Oct 29^th, 2018 at 11:33am	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:10pm: Did Ballard manufacturer their own ammunition or did they out source it Vall. As I mentioned above John, Marlin had a close relationship with UMC, and UMC manufactured the new ammunition for Marlin. Some of it marked "JM Marlin" and some UMC marked.

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Rebel Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4292 Location: Rockets and Race Cars Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #37 - Oct 29^th, 2018 at 1:40pm	Print Post
	Virgil Exner designed a lot of cars, but none are called "Exners". Aaron

	WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18053 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Which .25-20 was first? Reply #38 - Oct 29^th, 2018 at 3:02pm	Print Post
	LL Hepburn designed most of the Marlin rifles after he left Remington. So from 1888 forward Marlin rifles were his design. None of them named after Hepburn. At least Remington gave him credit!

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