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Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker (Read 32919 times)

Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #90 - Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:54pm	Print Post
	In the #50 index shown above, where is the 44-1/2 supposed to be? I see only "old model" Ideals listed.


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3913 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #91 - Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:55pm	Print Post
	Is it odd that an alphabetic index ends with "To"? What, no more "T"s, or "U, V, W, X, Y, Z"? Are there missing pages of index?


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #92 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 12:02am	Print Post
	oneatatime wrote on Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:55pm: Is it odd that an alphabetic index ends with "To"? What, no more "T"s, or "U, V, W, X, Y, Z"? Are there missing pages of index? Not odd--in other indexes, "Tools" was the last category listed, except, later, "US Gov't Cleaner."


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #93 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 12:18am	Print Post
	Redsetter wrote on Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:54pm: In the #50 index shown above, where is the 44-1/2 supposed to be? I see only "old model" Ideals listed. It's lumped in with the "Ideal" rifles, pp.21 thru pp.33. Pages 21 to 24 are descriptive text applying unquestionably to the old swinging-block style action. Page 25 is a cut with a few specs for the Model 44, in which they state that the only centerfire cartridges it will be supplied for are the .25-20 and .32-20. "For special calibers and extras see description of our No. 44 1/2 rifle, which has an entirely new action." Pages 26 thru 32 are descriptions of the various 44 1/2 models, 45 thru 54. Page 33 is the Model 55 Ladies Rifle. Comedically, they still used the old cuts of the 107/109 style action to illustrate. Those engraved plates were too expensive to replace, I guess. Following 2 pages are parts list for the ols style action. There is no parts list for the 44 1/2 action in this catalog. The Pope product line takes up pages 36 to 48.

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #94 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 12:38am	Print Post
	uscra112 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 12:18am: It's lumped in with the "Ideal" rifles, pp.21 thru pp.33. Pages 21 to 24 are descriptive text applying unquestionably to the old swinging-block style action. Page 25 is a cut with a few specs for the Model 44, in which they state that the only centerfire cartridges it will be supplied for are the .25-20 and .32-20. "For special calibers and extras see description of our No. 44 1/2 rifle, which has an entirely new action." Pages 26 thru 32 are descriptions of the various 44 1/2 models, 45 thru 54. Page 33 is the Model 55 Ladies Rifle. Comedically, they still used the old cuts of the 107/109 style action to illustrate. Those engraved plates were too expensive to replace, I guess. Following 2 pages are parts list for the ols style action. There is no parts list for the 44 1/2 action in this catalog. The Pope product line takes up pages 36 to 48. Well, only conclusion I can reach is that it's the very last ed. of the #50 catalog, with "1903" added to the cover to distinguish it from previous #50 eds. Changing the Ideal line so radically should have resulted in an entirely new catalog number, but for some unknown reason, maybe time constraints, maybe sheer stupidity, it was done this way. But I don't see that it means the 44-1/2 became available in 1902. Why should it with "1903" on the cover?


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #95 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:14am	Print Post
	uscra112 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 12:18am: Redsetter wrote on Oct 27^th, 2018 at 11:54pm: In the #50 index shown above, where is the 44-1/2 supposed to be? I see only "old model" Ideals listed. It's lumped in with the "Ideal" rifles, pp.21 thru pp.33. Pages 21 to 24 are descriptive text applying unquestionably to the old swinging-block style action. Page 25 is a cut with a few specs for the Model 44, in which they state that the only centerfire cartridges it will be supplied for are the .25-20 and .32-20. "For special calibers and extras see description of our No. 44 1/2 rifle, which has an entirely new action." Pages 26 thru 32 are descriptions of the various 44 1/2 models, 45 thru 54. Page 33 is the Model 55 Ladies Rifle. Comedically, they still used the old cuts of the 107/109 style action to illustrate. Those engraved plates were too expensive to replace, I guess. Following 2 pages are parts list for the ols style action. There is no parts list for the 44 1/2 action in this catalog. The Pope product line takes up pages 36 to 48. Phil, On what particular page of your catalog do you find the text description of the new 44 1/2 rifle action? One more thing... look on page 123 and 124 of your catalog... where are the Telegraphic Codes provided for ordering the new 44 1/2 action rifles, or are *only* the Telegraphic Codes for ordering the Model 44 action rifles shown?

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #96 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:33am	Print Post
	On page 124 are codes titled as being for the Model 44 rifle. They run through all the old cartridges right up to .38-55. No separate list for the 44 1/2 at all. No detail description of the 44 1/2 action, either. All the thumbnail descriptions for the 45 thru 54 refer to the frame as "case hardened, solid breech block", which could apply to either the old or the new action. But there is no page-long description as I see on page 29 of my repro Catalog #51. Indeed the only reference to a new action in the whole catalog is that phrase I posted earlier, to wit: "For special calibers and extras see description of our No. 44 1/2 rifle, which has an entirely new action."

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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #97 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:59am	Print Post
	uscra112 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:33am: On page 124 are codes titled as being for the Model 44 rifle. They run through all the old cartridges right up to .38-55. No separate list for the 44 1/2 at all. No detail description of the 44 1/2 action, either. All the thumbnail descriptions for the 45 thru 54 refer to the frame as "case hardened, solid breech block", which could apply to either the old or the new action. But there is no page-long description as I see on page 29 of my repro Catalog #51. Indeed the only reference to a new action in the whole catalog is that phrase I posted earlier, to wit: "For special calibers and extras see description of our No. 44 1/2 rifle, which has an entirely new action." So, in that particular reprint, Stevens made one lone single line mention of a new 44 1/2 action, but didn't provide the description refered to, didn't illustrate a rifle using it, didn't give a parts breakdown for it, and didn't give any telegraphic codes so that one could actually be ordered from them. All that taken together, it sort of sounds like a pre-production advertisement, maybe with more specific details to follow in the subsequent catalog. Like Bill said, it's going to take original catalogs to sort out this mess.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #98 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 2:26am	Print Post
	Either a tease, or their catalog production wasn't in synch with their product introduction.

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #99 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 9:21am	Print Post
	BP wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:59am: So, in that particular reprint, Stevens made one lone single line mention of a new 44 1/2 action, but didn't provide the description refered to, didn't illustrate a rifle using it, didn't give a parts breakdown for it, and didn't give any telegraphic codes so that one could actually be ordered from them. All that taken together, it sort of sounds like a pre-production advertisement, maybe with more specific details to follow in the subsequent catalog. Exactly what it looks like to me--that Stevens had already ordered a new printing of #50, with some of the work perhaps already completed, & the 44-1/2 reference was a last minute addition, squeezed in just before the job was finished.


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #100 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 9:28am	Print Post
	uscra112 wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 2:26am: ...their catalog production wasn't in synch with their product introduction. Evidence of that shows up all the time in advertising for all sorts of products! Where the staff of a company's art & advertising dept., if not a separate advertising firm commissioned to do the work, doesn't fully understand the product, how it works, even what it's supposed to look like.


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Bill Lawrence Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1037 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #101 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:32pm	Print Post
	One thing I can say for sure is that my original Catalog #51, which is not dated but by internal allusions was printed after July 25, 1903, lists the full 44-1/2 line as described in one of my earlier posts. Another thing is that all that I've said about Cornell reprints is speculation (except that they are in various ways unreliable or at least suspect) since I've never handled any of the 50-series Cornell reprints that we've been discussing. However, having "examined" those reprints as best I can through the Cornell site, I will repeat what I've said before: The Cornell Catalog # 50 cover-dated 1903 by its brief mention of the firm's "new action" and its nearly parallel content layout to my Catalog # 51 [i]could[i] have been printed in 1903. The Cornell Catalog # 51 (141 pages) has the same Frost cover as my Catalog # 51. On this Cornell publication's content list "New Action" immediately follows "Model 44". Also the whole content list indicates a very complete posting of the Stevens line. Taking this all together, my best guess is that despite the 1905 date on its cover, this catalog is actually early 1903; if so; it's likely the catalog that Red says my Catalog # 51 revises. In summary, based on what we've collectively discovered and hashed out so far, my speculation is that by their contents the catalogs we've been discussing most likely fall out chronologically this way: Catalog # 50 (R&R, 128 pages): 1902 Catalog # 50 (Cornell, 142 pages): very late 1902 or very early 1903 Catalog # 51 (Cornell, 141 pages): early 1903 Catalog # 51 (original, 136 pages): late 1903 Without access to more original catalogs or at least having the Cornell "reprints" in hand, that's the best I can do right now. Bill Lawrence


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #102 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 2:05pm	Print Post
	Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 28^th, 2018 at 1:32pm: this catalog is actually early 1903; if so; it's likely the catalog that Red says my Catalog # 51 revises. Red quoting Grant, to be clear. Wonder how many, after I made the effort of digging out that reference, & providing the page number, took the trouble to read it for themselves?


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #103 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 3:58pm	Print Post
	I looked just now at the Cornell site. The #50 (1903) and #51 (1905) catalogs which I bought 3-4 years ago are no longer listed as such. Her 1903 #50 is now 142 pages. No #51 listed at all. A #52 dated 1907 is listed. Curious. I've emailed Abby, asking if she can shed any light on this.

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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3913 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker Reply #104 - Oct 28^th, 2018 at 5:09pm	Print Post
	You have to go down farther in the list. They have a "c" prefixed to the date.


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