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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker (Read 32913 times)
BP
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #75 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:18pm
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Phil,

In the #53 catalog, the largest calibers shown for the 44 action (on page 28) are the 32 long Rim Fire, and the 32/20 Center Fire, so you're back to digging through the information contained in the prior catalogs.
« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:23pm by BP »  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #76 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:36pm
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BP wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:19pm:

The problem with a "hand-dated" 1912 is that the date could have been hand-written by Billy-Bob Dillwad, who had no association whatsoever with Stevens.


Never imagined it had anything to do with the Stevens company!  When did any company ever hand-date catalogs?  But it's the kind of thing a customer might do, right after he got it.  The full date written in ink on the cover is same as that one you described,"9-1-1912," & it looks like old handwriting.
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #77 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:47pm
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Well, this Cornell repro that I have, which is 128 pages and (I only just noticed) states "Catalog #50" in small print at the bottom of the frontspiece, very clearly limits the 44 to the small cartridges and no options, and very clearly states that the larger cartridges and special option will only be supplied on the "new action".   

The only question left in my mind is whether it is a truly 1903 dated catalog, as it says on the cover, or is it a 1902 catalog as that website claimed.   

On such trivia hangs the fate of the world.   Wink
  

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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #78 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:48pm
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The 44-1/2 was introduced in 1903, at which time the 44 was cataloged as no longer available in any centerfire caliber larger than .32-20.

However, for some time prior to that, perhaps even before Catalog # 50 (1902), the 44 parts pages list both "old style" and "new style (central)" extractors.  Therefore, to best answer your question, those who have original, earlier catalogs must chime in until we find, at best, the last catalog that lists only one extractor and the first that lists two styles.

And by the way, I underlined original simply to emphasize that it's dangerous to consult Cornell "reprints" in this exercise.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #79 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:51pm
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BP wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
If the catalog was created in late 1912, and wasn't sent out until the end of 1912, or beginning of 1913, then I'd lean toward Sharpe's date of introduction of the 404, and against Flayderman's, until a #52 catalog is found that definitively shows otherwise... that's my personal choice having been shown mistakes contained in Grant's books by others...


Don't doubt there are mistakes in Grant, but when he says definitely that he first found the 404 listed in a #52, not "I think it was a 52,"  (the last ed. of which is 1910), I don't quite understand why anyone would dispute that statement.   


  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #80 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:56pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:48pm:
And by the way, I underlined original simply to emphasize that it's dangerous to consult Cornell "reprints" in this exercise.


"Amen" to that!
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #81 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:10pm
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So we're back to where I've been for some years now,  i.e. is the Cornell 128 page #50 dated properly in its' cover?   

Is that repro cover the same as the later and bigger #50?
  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #82 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:18pm
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As for the Model 404,  my devil's advocate argument is that Sharpe was closer in time to original sources.

Be that as it may, if by some miracle, Cornell got the dates more-or-less right on its Catalog # 52 "reprints" - i.e., 1907 and 1909 - I'd say there's very good chance that both Cope and Grant are right that there are multiple editions of Catalog # 52.  Moreover, since both the 404 and the "High Power" lever gun appear therein, I'd guess that if Flayderman is right, the Cornell "1909" Catalog # 52 can really be dated no earlier than "1910". 

So now my question is, how did Cope, a Canadian yet, conclude that there are 4 versions of Catalog # 52?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #83 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:39pm
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So we're back to where I've been for some years now,  i.e. is the Cornell 128 page #50 dated properly in its' cover?   Is that repro cover the same as the later and bigger #50?

Lordy, this has been going on too long!

First, the Cornell catalog # 50 has 142 pages, not 128.  Yes, it does have the same cover as the R$R reprint of the 1902 Catalog # 50, which is the 128 page catalog.  But the Cornell catalog's content list and the order thereof match that of my original late 1903 Catalog # 51 with 136 pages -i.e., 6 less than Cornell's.

To sum up. the 1903 date of the Cornell Catalog # 50 is likely correct, but the cover is likely wrong and it's number should likely be "51" rather than "50".

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #84 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:47pm
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Redsetter wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:51pm:
BP wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
If the catalog was created in late 1912, and wasn't sent out until the end of 1912, or beginning of 1913, then I'd lean toward Sharpe's date of introduction of the 404, and against Flayderman's, until a #52 catalog is found that definitively shows otherwise... that's my personal choice having been shown mistakes contained in Grant's books by others...


Don't doubt there are mistakes in Grant, but when he says definitely that he first found the 404 listed in a #52, not "I think it was a 52,"  (the last ed. of which is 1910), I don't quite understand why anyone would dispute that statement.  



Redsetter,

Are you stating that the #52 in Grant's statement "the 404 listed in a #52" couldn't have been intended to be #53 instead?
A type setter could have accidently grabbed a 2 instead of an intended 3, that could have been missed during the proof-reading of Grant's book.
Such mistakes were not unknown to happen.

I agree with Bill when he says " those who have original, earlier catalogs must chime in ". 
  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #85 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:18pm:
So now my question is, how did Cope, a Canadian yet, conclude that there are 4 versions of Catalog # 52?


I assume by the only way one would know there was more than one ed--by seeing or being told about copies marked "52" that were clearly not identical.  Assigning dates to them would be the more difficult proposition.
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #86 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 8:18pm
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BP wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:47pm:
Are you stating that the #52 in Grant's statement "the 404 listed in a #52" couldn't have been intended to be #53 instead?
A type setter could have accidently grabbed a 2 instead of an intended 3, that could have been missed during the proof-reading of Grant's book.
Such mistakes were not unknown to happen.


Typos are always possible, but if you're going to raise that concern, look at all the other numbers & dates on almost every one of his pages that would be equally subject to typo errors; if any of them have been questioned, I haven't heard of it.

The "52 statement" I referred to appeared in his first book, so he had plenty of time to correct any mistake in his later books; which sometimes he did when new guns or info became available to him.   


« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2018 at 8:26pm by Redsetter »  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #87 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 8:42pm
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I assume by the only way one would know there was more than one ed--by seeing or being told about copies marked "52" that were clearly not identical.

Yes, dear boy, obviously.  But he didn't come up with "multiples", he came up with "four".  And he did so when there was no internet, no email, when things we now know are common were accepted as rare.

Or look at it this way.  Here we are with all our collective intelligence, decades of collecting experience, and research helps that the "old timers" likely didn't even imagine, and we can't seem to begin to do as well as they apparently did.

Speaking for myself, I'm a little ashamed and more than a little in awe of Kenneth Cope, Jim Grant, Phil Sharpe, Ned Roberts, and all the other Researchers Extraordinaire.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #88 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 9:55pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 8:42pm:
I assume by the only way one would know there was more than one ed--by seeing or being told about copies marked "52" that were clearly not identical.

Yes, dear boy, obviously.  But he didn't come up with "multiples", he came up with "four".  And he did so when there was no internet, no email, when things we now know are common were accepted as rare.


Maybe there were five!  One he never saw!  But his chronology makes sense--one new ed. per yr.  What a shame Stevens' original practice of dating their catalogs was discarded in favor of the numbering system!
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #89 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:24pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
So we're back to where I've been for some years now,  i.e. is the Cornell 128 page #50 dated properly in its' cover?   Is that repro cover the same as the later and bigger #50?

Lordy, this has been going on too long!

First, the Cornell catalog # 50 has 142 pages, not 128.  Yes, it does have the same cover as the R$R reprint of the 1902 Catalog # 50, which is the 128 page catalog.  But the Cornell catalog's content list and the order thereof match that of my original late 1903 Catalog # 51 with 136 pages -i.e., 6 less than Cornell's.

To sum up. the 1903 date of the Cornell Catalog # 50 is likely correct, but the cover is likely wrong and it's number should likely be "51" rather than "50".

Bill Lawrence



Bill! For Pete's sake!  I'm holding in my hand a Cornell reprint that says #50 on the frontspiece page, cover says 1903, and by God it is 128 pages!  It's got the 44 1/2 in it. 

I'm not that far gone.

Is it possible that it's the R$R catalog with the wrong cover?  In which case it IS a 1902 catalog?  How can we prove it?
  

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