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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker (Read 32969 times)
uscra112
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #60 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 3:45am
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No 50 early issue (colored picture cover) 1902, 128 pages.  Note the colored picture of a woman taking a bird from a dog, with the camp set up in the background, and no date shown.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


OK, I have a repro of what is by this source the early #50. It is 128 pages, not 147.  It is a Cornell repro.  Is it safe to say that this is the early version?  It has the date 1903 on the cover.  

What's important to me is that, if this was really published in 1902, that would move the upper bound of the central extractor intro back a year, since the parts list for the 44 therein includes both.   

BUT, if this is a 1902 publication, that also moves the 44 1/2 intro back, since it's in here too.  

I think that the gunandswordcollector site has the date wrong.
  

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BP
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #61 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 6:13am
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Phil,

You say your 128 page Cornell copy has a 1903 date on the front cover.
Does your reprint have any additional 1903 dates contained anywhere on the inside pages of the catalog, in the advertisements, on the back cover, etc?

What is strange is that Cornell's site does not show a 128 page #50 1902 catalog.
Cornell does show a 142 page #50 1903 catalog.

The cover shown on the gunandswordcollector site doesn't have a 1903 date displayed on the front cover.
If the reprint shown on the gunandswordcollector site is the same as the R&R reprint, it will have 1902 on the spine, (also on the back cover, and in three more places on the inside pages), but not on the front cover, and it won't mention or illustrate the 44 1/2 action.

  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #62 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 8:08am
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uscra112 wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 3:45am:
BUT, if this is a 1902 publication, that also moves the 44 1/2 intro back, since it's in here too.  



Either the date or catalog number is off base, & Cornell is known for mistakes of this kind.  One fact that no one disputes is that the 44 1/2 wasn't offered for sale before 1903.   

Since it was in development for many months before then, Stevens might have advertised "new model coming!," but that would have queered sales of 44s in inventory.  After the "new model" did become available, it must have been difficult to sell remaining higher-grade 44s, unless they were steeply discounted.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #63 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:01am
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Considering price difference, and the 44 being designated for small calibers after the 44 1/2 was introduced, I don't think the 44 1/2's introduction hurt 44 sales anymore than Low Wall introduction affected High Wall sales. They just complimented each other.
I think Stevens' plan was to replace the 44 with the newly designed 44 1/2, but we all know how well that worked for them. 44 fans must have been chuckling when the 44 1/2 went away, and the 44 remained?
  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #64 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:24am
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marlinguy wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:01am:
Considering price difference, and the 44 being designated for small calibers after the 44 1/2 was introduced, I don't think the 44 1/2's introduction hurt 44 sales anymore than Low Wall introduction affected High Wall sales.


I was referring to 44s in the higher grades, say model 47s & up, that were already in the factory inventory when 44-1/2 advertising began.  But quite possibly, Stevens stopped production of them as soon as tooling up for the new model began.   
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #65 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:56am
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My 40-year collection of Stevens ephemera stretches from the mid-1870s to the 1920s.  Its mostly original, factory material in complete, undamaged condition, indeed, much of the post-1900 material is as-new and in original mailers.  UNFORTUNATELY, the most recent catalog I have on hand is the Catalog # 51 I’ve written about in this installment.  All the later material is stored in my way-off-site warehouse.

The second caveat is that in my opinion based on my experience, Cornell’s Stevens catalogs specifically cannot be trusted as to covers, date assignments, and sometimes even contents.

Now, on to BP’s post, in the order he presents the catalogs.

Catalog # 50, 1902, 128 pages; Stevens-Pope section, no mention of 44-1/2
This is the R& R reprint which I bought some 20 years ago and still consider to be a true reproduction of the original.

Catalog # 50, 1903, 142 pages; Stevens-Pope apparently not mentioned; complete 44-1/2 line
This Cornell publication has the same cover as the R&R reprint of # 50 with the 1903 date added.  It has the same content layout as my original late-1903 Catalog # 51 (Frost’s male hunter with dog cover) but is stated as being 6 pages longer.

Catalog # 51, 1904, 140 pages; Pope Barrels and Stevens-Pope sections; 44-1/2 full line
While I don’t accept the later-style cover - my experience is that the colored, illustrated covers form an unbroken if relatively short sequence - or the catalog number, Cornell may well have the date correct with the content a true reprint.  Some dismiss this catalog’s date because it’s been widely publicized that Pope left Stevens in 1903.  But in an interview published in the June, 1941 American Rifleman, Pope himself states that he left on December 31, 1905, only to wiped out in San Francisco on April 07, 1906.

Catalog # 51, 1905, 141 pages; Stevens-Pope section, “new action” mentioned
Other than “1905" being added, this Cornell cover is identical to that of my original (revised?)  Catalog # 51.  It’s a very complete posting of the Stevens line.  Coming right after the Model 44 section, the “New Action” is surely the 44-1/2.  My best guess is that this catalog’s date is actually early 1903 and that it’s the catalog that Red says my Catalog # 51 revises.

(continued)
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #66 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:59am
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Catalog # 52, 1907, 160 pages; Stevens-Pope and 44-1/2 sections
This Cornell publication has the “Annie Oakley” cover that generated so much flak earlier.  I do believe it’s chronologically the last illustrated cover.  Moreover, since Harry’s uncle Albert Augustus did finally go bust in 1907 after his sixth and last car-making venture since 1899 failed, the date may well be correct.  The Stevens-Pope offerings were, of course, now under Ross.

Catalog # 52 (revised), 1909, 165 pages; no mention of Stevens-Pope
I’m pretty sure I have an original copy of this Cornell publication, and I’m also pretty sure that the date is too early.  My preference is c. 1914, based mostly on the catalog listing both the 404 and the “High Power” lever guns.

That's it for now.

Bill Lawrence
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #67 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 12:19pm
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Redsetter wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:24am:
marlinguy wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:01am:
Considering price difference, and the 44 being designated for small calibers after the 44 1/2 was introduced, I don't think the 44 1/2's introduction hurt 44 sales anymore than Low Wall introduction affected High Wall sales.


I was referring to 44s in the higher grades, say model 47s & up, that were already in the factory inventory when 44-1/2 advertising began.  But quite possibly, Stevens stopped production of them as soon as tooling up for the new model began.  


I would suspect you're correct. I think Stevens would have totally stopped high grade 44 models once they introduced the 44 1/2 action.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #68 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 12:52pm
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Redsetter wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 8:08am:
uscra112 wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 3:45am:
BUT, if this is a 1902 publication, that also moves the 44 1/2 intro back, since it's in here too.  



Either the date or catalog number is off base, & Cornell is known for mistakes of this kind.  One fact that no one disputes is that the 44 1/2 wasn't offered for sale before 1903.  



In this instance, as I posted, the website must be off.  Cornell's repro has a date of 1903.   What's curious is that it's only 128 pages, which according to Bill is the length of the early version.  And it covers the 44 1/2.  Is this yet a third version?
  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #69 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 12:55pm
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To quote from the one page devoted to the Model 44 in my Catalog # 51, while still offered in .25-20 Stevens C.F. and .32-20 C.F., "For special calibers and extras, see description of our 44-1/2 rifle ... an entirely new action."; "This rifle (Model 44) will not be fitted with double set triggers."; "No deviations from above specifications except as noted.", the "as noteds" being caliber, sights, barrel lengths, and a full-octagon barrel for $2.00 extra.

That was what they said.  But "Never say 'never'" the saying goes, so there were likely at least a few exceptions made for those "special" customers were willing to pay for it, pretty please.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #70 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 1:56pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:59am:
Catalog # 52 (revised), 1909, 165 pages; no mention of Stevens-Pope
I’m pretty sure I have an original copy of this Cornell publication, and I’m also pretty sure that the date is too early.  My preference is c. 1914, based mostly on the catalog listing both the 404 and the “High Power” lever guns.


I have a #53 hand-dated 1912.  “High Power” introduced 1910.
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #71 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 3:41pm
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The "semi-military" Model 404 (both actions) is popularly believed to have been introduced in 1913.  I don't have my catalogs from that time-period at hand to check.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #72 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:05pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 3:41pm:
The "semi-military" Model 404 (both actions) is popularly believed to have been introduced in 1913.


Disagreement about that, too.  Sharpe said 1913, but Flayderman says 1910. If forced to choose between the two with no other evidence, I'd accept Flayderman, as more recent & more careful, I think.

Grant only says first listed in catalog 52, but doesn't say WHICH 52!  According to Cope's catalog dates, there were FOUR different 52s, published from 1907 through 1910.  But since Grant definitely says it was "a" 52, & 1910 was the last of them, then I'd say 1910 is the most likely date.

Too bad Grant didn't attempt to sort out this catalog confusion when there were more originals to be found; trying to do it now, using repros of unknown accuracy, is a poor way to go about it.
  
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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #73 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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Redsetter wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 1:56pm:
Bill Lawrence wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 10:59am:
Catalog # 52 (revised), 1909, 165 pages; no mention of Stevens-Pope
I’m pretty sure I have an original copy of this Cornell publication, and I’m also pretty sure that the date is too early.  My preference is c. 1914, based mostly on the catalog listing both the 404 and the “High Power” lever guns.


I have a #53 hand-dated 1912.  “High Power” introduced 1910.

The problem with a "hand-dated" 1912 is that the date could have been hand-written by Billy-Bob Dillwad, who had no association whatsoever with Stevens.
The original "GENERAL CATALOG No. 53" that I have, which shows the High Power and the 404, may have a type-set date provided by Stevens...   not on the cover, but found on what would be page 1, at the lower left-hand corner of the page, below the New York City and London Office addresses, is "9-1-12-75" ... not sure what the -75 suffix could be, but the 9-1-12 might (or might not) represent Sept 01, 1912.
If the catalog was created in late 1912, and wasn't sent out until the end of 1912, or beginning of 1913, then I'd lean toward Sharpe's date of introduction of the 404, and against Flayderman's, until a #52 catalog is found that definitively shows otherwise... that's my personal choice having been shown mistakes contained in Grant's books by others, and going by the "bird in the hand" #53 catalog.
Draw your own conclusion.
Regardless, this tangent doesn't help Phil to pin down the year of the introduction of the 44 /12 action.
« Last Edit: Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:37pm by BP »  

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Re: Interesting Stevens 44 22 LR on Gunbroker
Reply #74 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 5:56pm
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What I really want to pin down is the date that the 7 o'clock extractor in the 44 gave way to the central extractor.   But knowing the date that they stopped selling the 44 in the larger centerfire calibers would also be helpful, and that would coincide with the introduction of the 44 1/2.   

Phil
  

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