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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Old Rifle Accuracy (Read 6811 times)
Old-Win
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Old Rifle Accuracy
Oct 15th, 2018 at 10:52am
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When looking at old pictures of shooters and their rifles, you see quite a mix of makers. Win, Stevens, Ballards etc.  I know they shot mostly offhand but if they were shot off the bench, was any particular brand thought to be more accurate than the others?  Undecided
  
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #1 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:15am
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From what I've seen looking at a large number of old shooting pictures from the late 1800's, the Marlin Ballard is the commonly seen rifle used.
The Stevens began to be more popular in the late 1800's, and more so in the early 1900's. But they didn't have the 44 or 44 1/2 framed target rifles earlier, so that likely explains the change.
The Winchester didn't even arrive on the market until 1885, and is a late comer also. Five years later in 1890 the Ballard ended production, so both Winchester and Stevens became more prevalent in matches towards the turn of the century. But Ballard rifles still were plentiful as used guns, and many were modified for various styles of shooting.
In long range matches the favorites seemed to be Sharps and Remington rifles. They had a history of strength, and large caliber chamberings. The long range Creedmoor type matches were losing interest in the late 1800's, but those guns remained effective, and popular.
  

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RSW
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #2 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:19am
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Old-Win
Your question is too broad for a precise response, IMO. By your statement "they shot mostly offhand", I assume you are talking about the Schuetzen game, meaning 200 yard target shooting. The most accurate rifles of that time were custom target rifles by such shops as Pope, Schoyen/Peterson and Zischang. The most accurate rifles tended to be on Ballard, Win 1885 or Sharps Borchardt actions. Such rifles by the shops of those makers were far removed from the factory rifles of the times. To make a fact-based statement as to which rifle action proved to be the most accurate, would likely involve no small amount of speculation.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #3 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:28am
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The custom makers reflected the era they worked in. Many worked in the mid to late 1800's, so the guns they chose were guns most popular in their time. Schoyen built far more Ballard rifles for schuetzen and benchrest than he did any other action. Pope being younger, and living well into the next century built far more Winchester rifles because they were more available, and newer during his time. And late in his career he built a fair amount of bolt actioned rifles because those were the gun of that time period.
If you compare custom makers guns to the era they lived, it had a big influence on what they built.
  

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old7groove
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #4 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:34am
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When I began shooting single shot rifles 50 years ago there were no modern actions or barrels in use. Of the match winning rifles most were rebarreled but Pope, Schoyen, Peterson and Zischang, as I recall the Ballard actions barreled by one of these makers won the majority of the matches, with either Pope or Schoyen winning most often. Not to say that the Stevens 44 1/2 and 85 Winchester were not winning rifles also.
BW Darr

  
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Old-Win
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #5 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:37am
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RSW, yes I'm talking about the schuetzen rifles of the common manufacturers, nothing custom.  For example, would Franklin Mann have found that one maker's rifle to be more accurate than the others if he shot them off his rest.
  
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old7groove
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #6 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:45am
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Of the factory made barrels I believe the Stevens barrels to be most consistently accurate.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #7 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 12:39pm
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Old-Win wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:37am:
For example, would Franklin Mann have found that one maker's rifle to be more accurate than the others if he shot them off his rest.


He'd have to have tested several individual guns from each maker to arrive at any general conclusion, & even then, there'd be exceptions--some particular one that happened to be far more accurate than all others of the same make. 

Furthermore, if one make consistently outshot all others, that fact would quickly become known, & nobody would shoot the other makes--which never happened.
  
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RSW
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #8 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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Old-Win
old7groove and Redsetter gave excellent answers to your question, IMO.
If I understand the intent of your question, you are looking for which rifle maker, in the historical sense, was overall the most inherently accurate and there is probably no simple answer to that question.
If there was a simple answer to your question such as brand X made the most accurate rifles, how would you use the bit of information, if I may be so bold as to ask? Knowing how you want to use the information, there are a number of readers of this forum would likely be willing to respond.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Old-Win
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Of course Red, but what I'm I'm trying to realize is what Vall has noticed, that you see more Ballard's in the pictures than any other rifle so was it because shooters thought they were more accurate or what? Was it the time frame that they were made?   The famous picture of Pope sitting in the chair, Walunt Hill, 1935, 2 Ballards and his highwall.
  
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art_ruggiero
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #10 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 1:49pm
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i think,  in general, that most people copy success and build- buy what the winners use  art
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #11 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 1:57pm
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Shooters win matches, actions don't - they might have some advantages when compared to others, but the influence of the action on rifle accuracy is not that big, assuming a decent action. Barrel and chambering are more important, but the main factor is 'the nut behind', especially when shooting offhand.
A tough one to 'copy'...
  
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beltfed
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #12 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 2:06pm
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Seems like it helped Stevens that Pope partnered/worked for them for a period and I imagine "taught them a thing or two" in barrel making :
As in:  "Stevens-Pope" marked barrels on the Stevens rifles.
beltfed/arnie
  
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beltfed
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #13 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 2:20pm
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Re. Franklin Mann,
Having his book, I recall that he mainly worked with "gilt edged" Pope barrels.  The barrels were securely clamped/ mounted in his "machine rest" and it probably almost did not matter what action he used.  Also Mann's studies largely worked on bullets,bullet defects, etc. 
Oh , he was interesting, but the book went on and on, with
what some would find were boring details of the studies
beltfed/arnie
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Old Rifle Accuracy
Reply #14 - Oct 15th, 2018 at 8:25pm
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westerner wrote on Oct 15th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
It was the same as today. The shooter who read the wind best won. 



               Joe.

Yup! At Ottawa in the 1,000 yard match in 93, Tom Matpack read the switchy little winds that were blowing bullets off both ends of the 10 foot wide target well enough to be high individual.  His shooting partner was 2nd high  Shocked
  

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