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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation (Read 16522 times)
boats
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #45 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 9:52pm
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P1 wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
ASSRA rules allow shooting jackets also. Why spend time casting the perfect bullet, honing loads to the last .1 grain and leave points behind by not using a jacket. The reason is Schuetzen matches have become a place for old guys to shoot their old guns and spout their opinions. No discussion, no facts, and then they qualify it by saying they aren’t very good shots. The technique of offhand shooting is enjoyable to practice I wish more would try it, regardless of scores. I’m fortunate to shoot in Western NY where there is a core group of shooters that are competitive, albeit off the bench.  Wink


Drive down to Virginia and get a lesson on how to shoot a single shot offhand at our club matches.  Our Rifle Ranges HP & CF have a few portable benches, none suitable for benchrest matches. When I was match director more than a few experts in other Rifle disciplines tried it expecting easy, and went home humbled.  And many of the best scores are shot  by “old”guys.

It’s a fact that competition breeds good shooters, nothing better than a club with a good match program well attended . That’s opinion, it can be supported with results 

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #46 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 10:36pm
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Gladly Frank if you will do the same. I just won an iron sight match in Maine with a 219 at 200 yards. Earlier this season I shot a 227 with the scope, and I have shot many scores in the 220’s. I shoot a Miller action, Bressien barreled 8.15x46R with palm rest and hooked plate. 
As far as saying that the best shooters in the world don’t consider natural point of aim critical to shooting offhand that is without question wrong. I see why more informed people made the decision on using jackets in ASSRA matches, much more. NRA high power match rifles are not light weight rifles. 
I don’t care what personal feelings are about rifle set up or jacket use. Experience has shown the best set up, it doesn’t help anyone to say out of date techniques are best. When choosing a barrel length and weight in would be best to have it balance for best shooting, or compromise for looks.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #47 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 11:37pm
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boats,
In my "former life" I shot Service Rifle. And Yes, with a padded jacket. We practiced NPA religiously, and Yes,
one can easily establish NPA with the jacket on. 

OH, BTW, my typical "light weight AR service rifle" weighs 14.5#
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #48 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:31am
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The description of jackets here seems to be a bit different than what I witnessed the smallbore kids at Tacoma doing. They looked like they were bundled up in a turtle shell  Huh  John  Crossman coached lots of those kids to being nationally competitive shooters.  I believe one of his kids went to the Olympics. 

P1, Just curious. Where did anyone say, "best shooters in the world don’t consider natural point of aim critical to shooting offhand." 
 
As far as scores go back when I was shooting a lot, my old Ballard consistently shot just under 2100 in the hundred shot. I have shot targets in the 220s and a couple targets in the 230s.  Having too many conflicts and not shooting in the last couple years other than a match or 2, if I picked up a rifle right now I would expect to shoot some where in the 190s or maybe even 205 if I got lucky.  Cheesy 

I did experiment a little shooting a modern lock (BSA) against a DST Ballard at 100 with .22 RF.  This was a comparison of quite a few targets over a couple of years.  I concluded the Ballad cost me 1/2 point a shot.  I'm not sure if the scopes really made many difference.  The Ballard had 20x Redfield 3200.  The BSA had a 36x B&L.  I couldn't really perceive any difference in wobble  Roll Eyes  One would expect the advantage to go to the Ballard with 20x if there was any advantage.
  

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #49 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:39am
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Hi P1,
To begin with, my name is:

Frank Elliott

I live in Central Point, Oregon

My phone number is:

541 292 9141

I shoot in the ASSRA & ISSA Stars and Stripes matches, in Nine Mile Falls, WA. I also shoot in CBA matches in Roseburg and Springfield, Oregon.

I don't consider myself a good OH shooter although, I have my good days sometimes, as I placed 2nd in the IS OH regional and third by one point in the German match, in WA. My scores are there for all to see, whether they be good or bad.

May I have your name and could we also get a picture of your rifle, as described? It sounds rather conventional to me.

I don't hide myself, on this forum, nor do I lie or do I post things on this forum, that I can't be backed up.

All of the ASSRA shooters that I shoot with, do not wear jackets and of course ALL the ISSA shooters do not.

None of the top OH shooters, in the matches that I shoot in, shoot a light weight barrel nor does Jim Feren, the long standing 100 shot and Metro, OH record holder, that broke the Hudson record 7 times.

OH, takes TALENT and PRACTICE, that is the main thing a person has to have to do well in OH, regardless of the OH discipline that one shoots in. I'll be the first to admit, that I don't have it.

Shooting coats are ARTIFICIAL support, that is all there is to it!!!!!!!!

I look forward to leaning more about how light weight barrels can help, OH.

Frank
« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2018 at 2:47am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #50 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:29am
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I don’t believe in bloviating,  But since we are documenting skill levels, It’s been a very long time since I Shot Service Rifle across the course . At the time it was a Service Rifle weight and configuration & we used M1 rifles borrowed from the Navy, Coast Guard did not maintain match tuned Service rifles .At the time High Power another thing and very different set up mostly on bolt actions. Won’t say anything more about Service Rifle out of the CG in 1986 and have not shot one since.Coast Guard started using AR type guns late 70s, qualified, never shot one in competition . 

Offhand Schuetzen 100 Shot match 2100 was the Men from Boys split & I have shot 2100, never shot 2200.   Re-entry matches another thing, have never shot a 230 close but not there.  Modern Silhouette classified AAA in all rifles. Smallbore Prone the English Match under Commonwealth rules class 3 one under the highest level . Nothing at the absolute top level, have been a student of of offhand over 50 years and have shot in matches alongside some the best in the country observing carefully when possible.  At one time we had very good Schuetzen Shooters on the East Coast, no more they have moved to other disciplines.

To be frank I only shoot a Traditional Rifle. In some cases modern style tricked out gun MAY shoot a higher score, most times because the shooter believes it will . Fact is if the hardware is up to standard the gun in offhand matches is a minor part of the result.   If the match is iron sight longer sight radius is advantage to msny shooters. If you can focus the front sight well it’s not important . 

That’s all I know about offhand anybody thinks his race gun will outshoot my CPA lets meet up and see. I will figure out a way to make old fashioned perform.

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« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2018 at 7:36am by boats »  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #51 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 8:44am
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I shoot with and without a coat. Usually with if the rules allow, sometimes not. But when allowed you use it because others are and it helps the hold. I have shot 2100’s and 2200’s with and without, but as I get older it’s easier with. I could care less if they got rid of coats if it was across the board but if they are allowed don’t complain if someone uses one, it’s allowed. I’ve coach kids for close to 30 years, ISU button coats (me to) not as much support as NRA strap heavy coats. NPA always the first concern and easy for them to do with a coat. From this post I would think offhand is alive and well in our sport but from the match results it sure doesn’t seem that way, if coats get those numbers up great, we need more offhand shooters. JMO
« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2018 at 8:49am by bnice »  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #52 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:16am
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We need more offhand shooter, guys that have commented on this tread have a wealth of experience. Problem is thousands of miles apart. Quick count last journal perhaps two dozen serious offhand shooters in ASSRA Matches.  ISSA more because they require OH & Bench. Lot of non ASSRA Offhand competition though. New Braunfells Club has strong attendance. Hundreds if not thousands shooting Lever Silhouette.

Way we built our single shot matches, mailing list over 100 range capacity 32 shooters twice a month one rim one centerfires, waiting list for slots often, flexable equipment rule. Shoot anything you can lift, not for match prizes.  Have to have a single shot to take home a prize.

Almost every regular shooter our matches started with something other than a single shot.  Far as I know I had the first CPA our club, at least a dozen CPA rifles now.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #53 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:03pm
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I do wish that Schutzen would get back to more of an offhand game. Personally I think that if the matches were organized more like the NRA format shooters may be more interested. If you had to finish a record target in one relay it would speed things up and be more appealing to shooters used to that course of fire, which is most shooters. 
I was asked to give some scores, I would not do that otherwise. I don’t care what the score is as long as I am one point ahead!  My original post was to put barrel length & weight in a balance of the rifle perspective, and that has changed from muzzle heavy to more balanced within the stance. I believe that it would be good for anyone setting up an offhand rifle to know that. I have no idea how this got onto shooting jackets but since there is a rule against support and jackets are allowed then they are not support.  According to ASSRA rules. To say jackets hinder holding NPA is just arguing for the sake of argument. Too many very serious shooters use them in very serious matches. In fact there is a picture of Pope himself wearing one at Camp Perry when shooting high power. 
At least there has been a small amount of discussion with this topic, not just all opinion based on feelings.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #54 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 10:50pm
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Thanks for the input.  I'm considering a 28 inch #2 in full octagonal, which I understand is heavier than a round barrel.  Thoughts about it being  too heavy or light for a 100 shot match?
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #55 - Sep 18th, 2018 at 11:53pm
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How much will it weigh with sights (scope)?  If you can handle the weight without fatigue for the duration of the match, it should be fine. 

There were only 3 of us who shot the 100 shot on a regular basis at Tacoma and Springfield. 2 Ballards and a Miller.  Not sure what the others weighed, but my Ballard is 16.5 # with the scope.  Bottomline will be what you are comfortable with.
  

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #56 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 1:31am
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P1 wrote on Sep 18th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
I do wish that Schu(e)tzen would get back to more of an offhand game. Personally I think that if the matches were organized more like the NRA format shooters may be more interested. If you had to finish a record target in one relay it would speed things up and be more appealing to shooters used to that course of fire, which is most shooters.

I guess that you will continue to be anonymous. That's allowed here but, I always like to know who I talk to. Just a old fashion idea, I guess.

If you would like to promote OH shooting, I would suggest that you look into ISSA matches, in your area and if there are none, promote one and maybe help with forming a match.

ISSA will always be, at least 50% OH and all matches are timed, usually 40 min for 20 shots but, you'll have to leave your shooting coat behind. It shouldn't matter though as all shoot w/o them and therefore a equal conditions so, the best will always win.

It doesn't mean that you have to give up ASSRA, many of us are members in both and it increases the number of times that you can shoot.

I would still look forward to following your results, if you could be so gracious.

Frank 
  

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #57 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 12:07pm
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As a follow-on to what frnkeore had to offer; check out the ISSA website for regional matches to see if any are in your neck of the woods. The ISSA match schedules can be accessed at:
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All our 2018 matches are finished but check on that site sometime in December. By then, a number of the 2019 schedule should be listed.
  

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #58 - Sep 19th, 2018 at 11:45pm
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Davenport match starts Friday through Sunday!!! A few open spots left. I think we have 29 signed up
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #59 - Sep 20th, 2018 at 12:59am
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If you want to get out of the snow we shoot all Winter long  Wink

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