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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) floral foam??barrel ringing?? (Read 12685 times)
Joe_S
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #30 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 10:38pm
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I have a question: I am not a scientist but it seems to me that if barrel ringing  can be induced without a wad ( as has been repeatedly asserted many times) , than the presence or absence of a wad is NOT a cause of the ringing.  Something else has to be the cause. If that is true, why all the attention on the use of the wad?
Joe S
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #31 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 11:51pm
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Due to the research done by Charlie Dell: that indicated a wad can increase the incidence of ringing when placed on the powder but does not occur when an air gap is left between the wad and the powder.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #32 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 8:52am
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Joe_S wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 10:38pm:
I have a question: I am not a scientist but it seems to me that if barrel ringing  can be induced without a wad ( as has been repeatedly asserted many times) , than the presence or absence of a wad is NOT a cause of the ringing.  Something else has to be the cause. If that is true, why all the attention on the use of the wad?
Joe S


JOE:
      The ring is caused by the exponential pressure rise when a column of high-velocity gas is decelerated against the base of the bullet (or other obstruction).  This phenomenon has been known for 100+ years.  When the column of gas is not symmetrical, it does not occur.  Therefore, when the powder is not symmetrically oriented on ignition, there is usually not a problem.  Obviously, the problem with a wad is that it constrains the powder charge into a symmetrical column.
       Charlie Dell and I did some experiments with "fake gunpowder" that convinced us that the wad does NOT strike the bullet, but ends up in the middle of the burning powder charge.
       Reading some of the published research will help you sort this out.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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40_Rod
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #33 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 9:26am
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Thank you Chris
People are so ingrained in the idea that its the wad that causes the problem that they never think beyond that. Wads and obstrustions can asarbate the effect but it is not the root cause.

40 Rod
  
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Dellet
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #34 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 9:29am
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rgchristensen wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 8:52am:
Joe_S wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 10:38pm:
I have a question: I am not a scientist but it seems to me that if barrel ringing  can be induced without a wad ( as has been repeatedly asserted many times) , than the presence or absence of a wad is NOT a cause of the ringing.  Something else has to be the cause. If that is true, why all the attention on the use of the wad?
Joe S


JOE:
      The ring is caused by the exponential pressure rise when a column of high-velocity gas is decelerated against the base of the bullet (or other obstruction).  This phenomenon has been known for 100+ years.  When the column of gas is not symmetrical, it does not occur.  Therefore, when the powder is not symmetrically oriented on ignition, there is usually not a problem.  Obviously, the problem with a wad is that it constrains the powder charge into a symmetrical column.
       Charlie Dell and I did some experiments with "fake gunpowder" that convinced us that the wad does NOT strike the bullet, but ends up in the middle of the burning powder charge.
       Reading some of the published research will help you sort this out.

CHRIS
RGChristensen


Any good reading suggestions?
  
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ledball
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #35 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 9:43am
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Back in the day Dacron was supposed to cause barrel ringing because it produced a hydraulic effect at the base of the bullet, so choose your favorite wad or no-wad and have fun.  Ledball
  
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marlinguy
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #36 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:10am
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40_Rod wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 9:26am:
Thank you Chris
People are so ingrained in the idea that its the wad that causes the problem that they never think beyond that. Wads and obstrustions can asarbate the effect but it is not the root cause.

40 Rod


Wads may not always be the cause, but saying the root cause is one thing or another isn't necessarily correct either. Ringing can be caused by the wrong powder charge, such as small charges of fast burning powders in larger cases. But wads or certain powder charges can both be the cause of ringing a chamber. 
In some instances it's extremely easy to induce or recreate ringing the chamber every time if the right powder and charge are combined with a wad. Or even using certain powder charges alone, without a wad.
  
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #37 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 2:31pm
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I'm one of those that has "rung" a barrel and will NEVER use a wad on the powder, ever again, as I now fear wads, no matter where they are placed, other than the case mouth. I guess that makes me, in our modern times, a Wadaphobic!

What I did was place a wad of 1/16th soft foam, cut in 1/2" squares, down on 18 gr of 296, in a 30/40 Krag (30 USA), trying to get accuracy with a GC bullet, for CBA matches.

I didn't go into it blind, fixed CBA guys, at the time, where using it but, with 2/3 or more loading density. My load was about 1/3.

The rifle is a SST HW with a A&M barrel. It "rang" the barrel, just behind the shoulder, enough that the only way I could get the case out, was use a cleaning rod.

Thankfully it rang at the shoulder and not the case mouth. I was able to re-chamber it it 30/40 Imp and saved it, w/o loosing it's accuracy.

Frank
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #38 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 4:10pm
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[/quote]

       Reading some of the published research will help you sort this out.

CHRIS
RGChristensen [/quote]

Any good reading suggestions?
[/quote]

2ND edition of Charlie Dell's book, pp163ff
Burrard, "The Modern Shotgun"
ASSRA Journal articles by Dell & Helbert
  
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Joe_S
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #39 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 5:34pm
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I am going to re-read (for about the 10th time) the pertinent portions of Modern Schuetzen Rifle on this subject, but assuming the wad is not critical, perhaps we can narrow it down to certain powder and case  volume specifications. Just a thought.
Joe S
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #40 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 6:42am
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The was, and more specifically the was position is critical. It is pretty hard to get the required conditions without a wad, unless you shoot straight up ...
  
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uscra112
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Re: floral foam??barrel ringing??
Reply #41 - Aug 23rd, 2018 at 9:49pm
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Quote:
  Cotton won't burn in the absence of oxygen.  It seems any available oxygen in the case is consumed by the burning powder.  Time of exposure is also a factor, in addition to heat.  The temp. may be high enough for ignition, but it's a very brief exposure.


From a discussion of throat wear elsewhere I have the datum that the combustion product of single-base powder is oxygen-poor, but double-base powder is oxygen-rich.  FWIW.

I'm inclined to think that time of exposure is the governing factor.  I've used kapok in the past, and also saw the cloud of fibers in the sunlight.  And that was with XMP-5744, which is double base.  The kapok did me do good, BTW.
  
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