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Schuetzenmiester
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Recoil sensitivity
Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:20am
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The Trapdoor carbine 45-70 thread got me to thinking about recoil sensitivity.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I have always wondered why shooting a 12 gauge until one's shoulder is black and blue down to the elbow does not seem to affect shooting the shotgun or even shooting tweety birds and ground squirrels offhand with a .22, but recoil in rifle target shooting causes lower performance.   

When I shot high power silhouettes, I started with a hunting rifle I had, a .280 Remington.  During the sight in period, I was hitting nearly all the targets.  When the match started, I was doing ok, but noticed I was missing more as the match continued.  Of course, schuetzen rifles have much lower recoil, but after shooting a higher recoil rifle, performance seems to suffer even if there is no noticeable flinch. That is why I usually shot a .40-65 rather than my .45-100 in the BP matches in all of our schuetzen matches here in the PNW.  I usually shot our .45-70 Military Musket match after my other offhand was finished.   

Anyone else notice that?
  

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JS47
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #1 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:40am
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I've noticed lately that I shoot my 32-20 better than I shoot my 38-55. One is as accurate as the other but I've come to admit that I must be recoil sensitive. It's not a manly thing to admit but that's the way it is. In my defense of manliness, I think it has a lot to do with controlling the recoil cycle. The more the recoil the harder it is to control and keep it the same on the bags or on the shoulder from shot to shot. The best way I know of to see if you have a flinch is to have someone else load the rifle while you're not watching and hand it to you to shoot. If he hands you an unloaded rifle after a few shots you'll know as soon as you press the trigger if you have a flinch because your assistant will be howling with laughter. I know! 

JS   








« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:50am by JS47 »  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #2 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:46am
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It is interesting.  I have had shooters watching me shoot say, "Do you know your barrel doesn't move when you shoot?"   "No", I hadn't noticed  Roll Eyes
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:11am
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The smallest round with the least recoil capable of doing the job, assuming equal mechanical accuracy, will always be better when putting the shooter in the equation:  When I got my new 32-20 BPTR up and running, I promptly added a few points to my average score. 
When comparing it to shooting my 45's, that's about 3 points more, shooting prone, with sling.
Why?  Recoil-induced shooter fatigue in long series will take its toll, the recoil makes consistent rifle control much harder - for me this is a factor comparing foot-pounds of recoil generated vs. rifle weight, with stock design and rifle configuration as added complicating factors.
However, strange to say, I can shoot my 32-20 better than my .22LR match rifle of similar configuration - so I guess that the negative effects only start as from a certain level of recoil...
  
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BP
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:18am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 12:20am:
The Trapdoor carbine 45-70 thread got me to thinking about recoil sensitivity.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I have always wondered why shooting a 12 gauge until one's shoulder is black and blue down to the elbow does not seem to affect shooting the shotgun or even shooting tweety birds and ground squirrels offhand with a .22, but recoil in rifle target shooting causes lower performance.  

When I shot high power silhouettes, I started with a hunting rifle I had, a .280 Remington.  During the sight in period, I was hitting nearly all the targets.  When the match started, I was doing ok, but noticed I was missing more as the match continued.  Of course, schuetzen rifles have much lower recoil, but after shooting a higher recoil rifle, performance seems to suffer even if there is no noticeable flinch. That is why I usually shot a .40-65 rather than my .45-100 in the BP matches in all of our schuetzen matches here in the PNW.  I usually shot our .45-70 Military Musket match after my other offhand was finished.  

Anyone else notice that?

Bob,
Have you ever tried shooting a couple boxes of 12 gauge off the bags sitting at the bench?    Wink
  

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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:47am
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YUP!
In years past for long range matches if I didn't have a rifle finished and loads worked up for it I was always able to fall back on my Shiloh 45-90.  I have a load that involves a 600g nasa bullet, it shoots extremely well long distance and heavy wind...   This year I had to resort to it just to make me feel better on my last two targets, it was only a 1026 yd  and a 800 + target - I was struggling on the other targets with my intended rifle... I started shooting and was going true to form but by the 6th or 7th round, I caught myself anticipating recoil, a shooter next to me noticed too... 
Never had this issue before.   Shocked
  

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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:05am
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It's a fact, lightest recoiling cartridge that gives acceptable ballistics on target will shoot higher scores. "acceptable" is the key here. If the bullet won't do the job there is a heavy penalty.  But holes on paper are not hard to punch.

When several international shotgun disciplines started restricting loads to the metric equlivent of 1 oz scores went up. Shooters that shot 1 1/8 oz were surprised   

Boats
  
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #7 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:07am
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Are you sure you aren’t just over holding when you shoot the match, trying to get it perfect. If it doesn’t seem to be a issue in practice........
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #8 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:16pm
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bnice wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:07am:
Are you sure you aren’t just over holding when you shoot the match, trying to get it perfect. If it doesn’t seem to be a issue in practice........



Pretty sure, not that I don't have to watch that and put the gun down on a bad day.  It doesn't seem to happen with the .33, .25 or .22 unless I shoot a .45-70 before shooting them. Then there might be a little of what I will call "Recoil Distress" for lack of a better term.

Another thing I have noticed is about once a year I will have a flinch coming on.  I either shoot it off to the side concentrating on a dirt clod or weed if the trigger is set on  a hot load.  If not, it can be done away with dry firing a shot. After it is gone, it is back to holding the barrel still for another year or two  Shocked
  

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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #9 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:18pm
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boats wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 8:05am:
It's a fact, lightest recoiling cartridge that gives acceptable ballistics on target will shoot higher scores. "acceptable" is the key here. If the bullet won't do the job there is a heavy penalty.  But holes on paper are not hard to punch.

When several international shotgun disciplines started restricting loads to the metric equlivent of 1 oz scores went up. Shooters that shot 1 1/8 oz were surprised  

Boats


That 1/8 oz in shotgun is interesting.  One would think the extra pellets for a denser pattern would prevail.  Huh
  

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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #10 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:20pm
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BP wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:18am:

Bob,
Have you ever tried shooting a couple boxes of 12 gauge off the bags sitting at the bench?    Wink


Never carried a bench around looking for moving targets  Shocked  Cheesy Cheesy
  

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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #11 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:25pm
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GT wrote on Aug 11th, 2018 at 2:47am:
YUP!
In years past for long range matches if I didn't have a rifle finished and loads worked up for it I was always able to fall back on my Shiloh 45-90.  I have a load that involves a 600g nasa bullet, it shoots extremely well long distance and heavy wind...   This year I had to resort to it just to make me feel better on my last two targets, it was only a 1026 yd  and a 800 + target - I was struggling on the other targets with my intended rifle... I started shooting and was going true to form but by the 6th or 7th round, I caught myself anticipating recoil, a shooter next to me noticed too... 
Never had this issue before.   Shocked

Shooting backrest is a big advantage on perceived recoil in longrange shooting.  An advantage by original rules shooting without a rest too, but not that prone x-sticks are the norm I think backrest is a disadvantage.  Guess everyone will have to take a beating  Grin
  

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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #12 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 6:37pm
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I do indeed have recoil sensitivity for nearly all my life, thanks to a buggered right shoulder. I has always reduced my ability to shoot many shots on any given day.

It really does help if felt recoil is lower, but, it is more complicated than that. Some long guns I simply shoot better, even much better, than others. Partly it is how easy it is to hold gun steady -dugh! -- and how easily I can control trigger -- dugh again! 

However, there is definitely a limit to how many shots I can fire from a given gun & load before it is really time to quit wasting ammo. Of late that is presaged by the first stray shot -- QUIT! -- and come back some other time, it is over for that day.

As I have aged and various body parts function less well, I have had to make adjustments and/or try to rehab needed muscles. Head position has been an unexpected one, resulting from failing eyes. 

Effects of medications is a common one that I am slowly recovering from, thanks to quitting all but one prescription pills. And I am enjoying additional bonus that my old bod feels and functions better -- DAMN PILLS & the doctors that insist I take them!!
  
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #13 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:12pm
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On the shotguns, FITASC = international rules, requires under 1 oz,  all they need to do is break a clay target, go back to the adequate ballistics part of the equation, 1 oz on target will do that. American Sporting Clays allows 1 1/8 oz. to maintain consistency shooters that compete  both rules generally shoot 1 oz both and found scores higher with 1 oz.

Our club offhand 200 yard club single shot matches have a long record of equipment and calibers. All we have to do is hit a steel Ram hung from chains no knockdown. required. 38/55 has won more than any other caliber. 32/40 does not hit hard enough to spot reliable strikes and hits can be overlooked.thats the adequate part of the equation.  40 & 45 calibers hit it hard but wear the shooter out. Sighters 40 Shot match then shoot off to break ties 45/70 wears on even the best shots. 

IDPA action pistol competition has power factor rules, otherwise shooters would go to powder puff loads and no doubt shoot much higher scores. 

Recoil has significant effect no doubt about it.

Boats
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2018 at 9:17pm by boats »  
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Re: Recoil sensitivity
Reply #14 - Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:45pm
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I've always hated high recoil in anything; rifle or pistol. I don't mind low recoil and don't see much difference between calibers like .32-40 and .38-55 for my uses. But even those calibers I load to mild levels, so likely that's why they aren't an issue for me.
  

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