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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Gun room humidity (Read 11872 times)
Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #30 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:26pm
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svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:10pm:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 7:40pm:
[quote author=64687B6560676E7C70090 link=1533482197/14#14 date=1535401095] 

I have read a little about that on WW sites.  It is normally a resin that they are forcing into the wood to stabilize it.  Usually a piece of burl.  They have varying degrees of success.  Plain old boring straight grain quarter sawn is the most stable.


IF one wants gunstock wood that is least subject to warping, drying out, shrinking, etc., starting with most stable grain patterns is excellent place to start. None of my gunstocks are pretty, most are just nice stable, relatively tight grained wood. Wood on my original Win LW is perhaps the least inherently stable but was well shrunk when I got it, and loose from metal. Complete re-bedding got it to nice stable condition and greatly reduced group sizes with cast bullets. It has proven to be one of those old rifles with ugly bore that still shoots at least some mantled bullets into nice small groups for first 3 to 5 shots. For a turkey rifle that is excellent.


There are lots of things one can do that will make minor differences, but the point is only temperature and humidity control will prevent the dramatic changes mentioned above.

Taking those firearms out in the extremely low humidity for short term use and hunting trips will not cause those kinds of changes. Air drying of wood doesn't happen over night  Roll Eyes
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #31 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 12:43pm
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You may be correct on the use of resin Bob. I don't recall all the details of putting stocks into vacuum bags and pulling a vacuum to seal them.
I do recall they were removing the stocks before whatever finish was set up, so the exteriors could be wiped clean and not make a mess. So I'd guess if it was an epoxy resin it wasn't a quick setting epoxy, but probably something like Acraglass that takes hours to even thicken, and 24 hrs to fully set up.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #32 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 12:52pm
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What I recall reading on WW sites was to stabilize and strengthen highly figured wood.   I don't recall anyone using vacuum for anything but that and veneering.   

Laminates were mentioned above.  They are the most stable form of wood; multiple layers of grain opposing movements.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #33 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 1:28pm
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Vall, I googled "vacuum chamber wood finishing" and all it came up with was resins for stabilizing.
  

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JS47
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #34 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 10:58pm
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calledflyer wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:51pm:
I have to agree with Gris on the 'baggie' method. Pressure sounds right to put something into wood. Vacuum sounds like it'd remove something, doesn't it to you?


The vacuum removes the air which lets the resin or finish flow into the wood when the vacuum is let off and the pressure is applied. A common "Food Saver" won't do it. It doesn't pull enough vacuum. I gave a description of the method we used with a tank made of 6" plastic city water line and a vacuum/ pressure setup some time back on the forum. It worked great for stabilizing wood during drastic changes in weather but was pretty expensive so we quit doing it. My rifle has been living in 50-80% humidity all it's life. I'm a little nervous about what will happen to it over a winter in southern AZ. I'm afraid it will shrink up like my 95 year old mother.

JS
  
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #35 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 10:29am
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JS47 wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 10:58pm:


The vacuum removes the air which lets the resin or finish flow into the wood when the vacuum is let off and the pressure is applied. A common "Food Saver" won't do it. It doesn't pull enough vacuum. I gave a description of the method we used with a tank made of 6" plastic city water line and a vacuum/ pressure setup some time back on the forum. It worked great for stabilizing wood during drastic changes in weather but was pretty expensive so we quit doing it. My rifle has been living in 50-80% humidity all it's life. I'm a little nervous about what will happen to it over a winter in southern AZ. I'm afraid it will shrink up like my 95 year old mother.

JS


Agree that IF one wants to use vacuum removal, one needs really effective equipment. Perhaps best followed by pressure injection of sealant.

As regarding moving guns from high to low or low to high humidity, those are just the kinds of changes in ambient conditions that lead well known riflemen, such as Jack O'Conner , to sealing the interior wood surfaces on their rifles. Basically this means ALL the interior surfaces, which on every new rifle I ever bought in USA were totally bare wood and highly sensitive to changes in humidity. These bare surfaces also soak up sealent fluids, such as stock finishers, really well. Even more likely to result in stock warpage is stocks made from fancy wood with grain patterns far from purely straight grained. Also, remember that during O'Conner's time as gun writer, it was common to use "shims" in barrel channels to control vibration patterns, perhaps leading to increased chance that shrinkage/swelling of bare wood would result in unwanted changes of POI in precision hunting rifles. As I recall, free-floating rifle barrels was to be the ultimate solution to such problems.

If one believes the rationals given for laminated stocks, and they do sound quite correct IF done properly, then that is one more way to get really stable stocks. Perhaps the logical extreme for wood stocks.

If, one is simply trying to prevent shrinkage of stocks in purely collector guns, then the techniques and practices of major museums are highly recommended. I would presume that NRA HQ collection uses such practices.
  
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #36 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 11:13am
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Here is a site that gives technique for resin impreg.  I think it is similar to what Division of Research/Wood Technology at WSU was doing 65 years ago. Not gonna be cheap tho.
A good cold trap between the chamber and the pump might help.

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marlinguy
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #37 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 1:07pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 12:52pm:
What I recall reading on WW sites was to stabilize and strengthen highly figured wood.   I don't recall anyone using vacuum for anything but that and veneering.   

Laminates were mentioned above.  They are the most stable form of wood; multiple layers of grain opposing movements.


If I ever had to go to a laminated stock to get better accuracy, I'd rather have less accuracy! I find nothing appealing about a laminated stock, and not sure I could even own one on a bolt action hunting rifle! I'd rather have plastic or some man made material on a hunting rifle. At least it would be lighter, and all one color!
  

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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #38 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 3:10pm
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marlinguy wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 1:07pm:


  At least it would be lighter, and all one color!



Bet you can get them in Red, White & Blue.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #39 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 4:39pm
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I've seen laminated stocks made wholly of walnut with fancy outer layers that were quite spectacular.  Not cheap, I'm sure.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #40 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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Those wobbly plastic stocks really screw up the accuracy.
I will never put them on a rifle.
Yes laminated stocks may not be pretty; but still prettier than plastic.
And damn they are accurate.
« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:00pm by Schuetzendave »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #41 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:28pm
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svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 3:10pm:
marlinguy wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 1:07pm:


  At least it would be lighter, and all one color!



Bet you can get them in Red, White & Blue.


Since I'm not a fan of laminated, why would I want any colors? 
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #42 - Aug 29th, 2018 at 5:34pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Aug 29th, 2018 at 4:52pm:
Those wobbly plastic stocks really screw up the accuracy.
I will never put them on a rifle.


There's cheap plastic, and then there's high end composite stocks Bob. I too wouldn't use cheap plastic stocks, but my Rem. 700VSF was built back when Remington offered my gun with the HS Precision Kevlar stock with aluminum bedding block. 
The difference between a cheap plastic stock, and my HS Precision factory stock is night and day. My 700VSF in .22-250 will shoot under 1 MOA all day long, and I've taken many Eastern Oregon ground squirrels at 300-400 yds. with it. It's butt ugly for somebody who appreciates nice wood and blued steel. But I sure can't knock the accuracy, and the desert sand color is much more appealing than black plastic, or laminate stocks. At least to me.
  

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Re: Gun room humidity
Reply #43 - Aug 30th, 2018 at 12:50pm
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After working with wood for 40 years , solid and laminated . Solid wood is like a sponge it will soak up anything it comes in contact with. The reason laminated stocks are more stable is that when wood is machined into  strips , all of the tension is taken out 
Of each pcs. So when laminated together , warping is less prominent. Larger pcs. Of solid lumber always have some kind of tension. moisture will change that tension Causing warping 

Doug
  
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