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Traditional rifle scope rules (Read 33179 times)

Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #45 - Jul 21^st, 2018 at 9:36pm	Print Post
	Thanks JL. Wonder why they didn't show when I googles ISSA traditional rules? As I remember (they can correct me, if I'm wrong), it was so that modern shooters could "compete" with the ODG's, as directly as possible, with the equipment they had access to, made "prior to the onset of WWI". It wasn't a class, for rifles to just look traditional. I agree Frank. But souping up a traditional rifle and cartridge with a quick twist and long heavy bullet does not seem to be addressed. I like RSW's idea for the powers that be at ASSRA, ISSA and WSU to appoint a team to revise the rules to a common standard for all three organizations. Me too! It would be very discouraging to travel many miles to find you are legal in one but some detail excludes you from another. Thanks Joe_S, Glad to hear there is a lot of interest out there. During this discussion I started to think my scopes might not be traditional. They are nearly all 3/4 but have a larger objective. Being schuetzenmeister, I hate being totally confused Confused enough without being totally confused

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #46 - Jul 21^st, 2018 at 11:24pm	Print Post
	BP wrote on Jul 21^st, 2018 at 7:32pm: Cataract rifle scopes too, that preceded the Stevens scope line? Though Stevens got into the scope biz by buying Cataract's patents & other assets at a bankruptcy auction, only their cheaper models were actually derived from Cataract's optical design. Closest readily available scope in design to a Cataract would be the Stevens or Lyman 438, which I don't think most would find satisfactory for competitive shooting, though they're quite alright for small-game hunting.


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #47 - Jul 21^st, 2018 at 11:32pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Jul 21^st, 2018 at 7:27pm: Not trying to be rude but why are you leaving the Sidel's out of the discussion along with the Cummins both prior to 1917. They're just too damned hard to find, if you're talking about originals! Not to mention that Cummins basic design was flawed by unnecessary complications.


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Fogman Full Member Offline Posts: 153 Joined: Mar 10^th, 2016	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #48 - Jul 21^st, 2018 at 11:43pm	Print Post
	From the NRA BPTR rules: "Mounts are to be of a traditional style of the period and contain the windage and elevation adjustments for the scope in either, or both, the front or rear mounts. No click adjustments in the mount." Why the prohibition on "clicks"? Were scopes with clicks made at a much later date?


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #49 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 8:46am	Print Post
	Fogman wrote on Jul 21^st, 2018 at 11:43pm: Why the prohibition on "clicks"? Were scopes with clicks made at a much later date? Yes, that's the reason, though the difference between "with" & "without" seems far less meaningful to me than, for ex., the difference between the large objective lenses & high-magnification of modern scopes such as a STS and those commonly in use pre-1917. The usefulness of "clicks" only became recognized when, after WW I, military-style position-shooting at different ranges replaced Schuetzen in popularity. Fecker was the first to build such mounts commercially beginning in 1925.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #50 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 12:17pm	Print Post
	Redsetter the Sidel was just being used as an example of the 20X and larger objectives already being around and being used prior to 1917. The Cummins just to point out enternaly adjustable scopes were also around. The rules point out faithful reproductions are acceptable leading up to the Lymans, Unertls, Feckers, Davis etc. It does not state exact copies of and the CPA Stevens is a good example of a faithful reproduction and not an exact copy of. JLouis

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #51 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 2:31pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 12:17pm: Redsetter the Sidel was just being used as an example of the 20X and larger objectives already being around and being used prior to 1917.JLouis I know that's true, but they could not exactly be said to be in "common use." Really, only a handful of Sidel's well-heeled customers had them specially built, but such advanced models were not listed in his catalogs. (However, he did offer to build custom scopes to the buyer's specs.) Typical of the scopes reported used in pre-war Schuetzen matches were smaller Sidels, Stevens, & Winchesters, all similar in size & power. MVA's Winchester repro is the closest thing currently available to scopes of that period, & it's too bad the rules don't encourage their use, as MVA deserves to be rewarded for making this model available once again.


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #52 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 2:48pm	Print Post
	Redsetter wrote on Jul 21^st, 2018 at 11:24pm: BP wrote on Jul 21^st, 2018 at 7:32pm: Cataract rifle scopes too, that preceded the Stevens scope line? Though Stevens got into the scope biz by buying Cataract's patents & other assets at a bankruptcy auction, only their cheaper models were actually derived from Cataract's optical design. Closest readily available scope in design to a Cataract would be the Stevens or Lyman 438, which I don't think most would find satisfactory for competitive shooting, though they're quite alright for small-game hunting. Quote: In 1902 (or thereabouts) Hardinge Co. acquired the rights to the Cataract range of Precision bench lathes, formerly produced by the Cataract Tool and Bicycle Company near Niagara Falls, NY (hence the name of the company) and the Cataract Tool and Optical Company, the latter being incorporated in Buffalo, (New York). "Cataract" was to become the brand name used for many of the Hardinge precision lathes produced during the next 50 years. The background to the Hardinge acquisition involved a successful range of Cataract rifle scopes that attracted the attention of the well-known gun and tool maker J.Stevens Arms & Tool Company, of Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts. In 1902 Stevens bought the company and, employing the skills of former Cataract manager Mr. F. L. Smith, continued to market the scopes under their original name. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #53 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 4:33pm	Print Post
	BP wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 2:48pm: ...continued to market the scopes under their original name. There might have been a small number of unsold Cataracts included among the assets obtained by Stevens at the auction, later sold off "as is," but no scope built by Stevens (or rather, F.L. Smith) after starting up their own production line in Chicopee Falls was marked or marketed under the Cataract name.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #54 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 4:51pm	Print Post
	MVA's scope niche is in BPCR and that group of competitors has served them very well. There is no way it can make the grade for current 200yd. benchrest and simply not the market it was designed for. To lower and limit the magnification for benchrest would only be disastrous for a sport that is already suffering way to much and would probably end it for most. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7249 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #55 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 5:06pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 4:51pm: MVA's scope niche is in BPCR and that group of competitors has served them very well. There is no way it can make the grade for current 200yd. benchrest and simply not the market it was designed for. To lower and limit the magnification for benchrest would only be disastrous for a sport that is already suffering way to much and would probably end it for most. JLouis This is what is so detrimental, regarding the expressed purpose of the "traditional" class. As I said, it was established to compete with the ODG's not, suit modern shooters convince. If you want to find and use a 20X Sidel, do so or, take it apart and make a FAITHFUL copy of it. The iron sight game is still doing well, why would a 8 - 12X scope ruin single shoot shooting, when used in it's own class? It actually might make that class more competitive and make the rifles stand out, on the line. Frank

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #56 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 5:26pm	Print Post
	There is no class separation the Traditional Rifles have been competing along side of and against the modern class and in ASSRA all you get is a T after your scores and in ISSA a seperate bar to add to your Medal. Been that way for the 17 years I have been competing in Schuetzen. When is the last time you have seen prize rifles at a National event being handed out to Traditional Class shooters only? Or other various awards and prizes for that matter. Or a separate Grand Agg. and the ultimate personal accomplishment. JLouis
	« Last Edit: Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 5:50pm by JLouis »
	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #57 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 5:29pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 4:51pm: MVA's scope niche is in BPCR and that group of competitors has served them very well. But wouldn't those shooters probably be using MVA's long-tube scopes, rather than their Winchester replica, their so-called B model? (It's far closer in optical design to Winchester's A model than the B, but I can look the other way on that minor point.)


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #58 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 5:46pm	Print Post
	Redsetter I have no clue what or what not the BPCR competitors can use it's not my Shooting Sport and Iam totally ignorant of their rules. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Premod70 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 864 Location: North Carolina Joined: Jan 16^th, 2016	Re: Traditional rifle scope rules Reply #59 - Jul 22^nd, 2018 at 5:54pm	Print Post
	A traditional class would be great and a uniform set of rules would be even greater. Gamers will always game the rules but like the NRA BPCR game a fair and fun class could bring out more shooters to basically a historical form of shooting.


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