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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Traditional rifle scope rules (Read 33960 times)
Bill Lawrence
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #30 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 3:30pm
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As is often the case, JLouis has made what is for me an attention-getting comment.  I'm not familiar with Steve Barber, let alone his new action.  Can others (including, of course, Mr. Louis) point me toward sources if information"  Or post it here, with pictures, if possible?

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JLouis
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #31 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 3:45pm
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Bill the action is being shown and talked about in the Stars and Stripes match Topic here in the general section.

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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #32 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 5:18pm
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Thanks for the heads-up, Mr. Louis; I enjoyed the entire post.

The action looks interesting and might indeed be considered "traditional" in a few more generations.  Unfortunately, if I understood the conversations correctly, your $500/$600 price quote is for a kit.  If that's the only option, I with my 10 thumbs and no shop will have to pass.

But thanks again.

Bill Lawrence

  
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JLouis
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #33 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 6:02pm
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Hopefully it doesn't require a shop but just some simple hand tools. It wasn't made clear how difficult or simple it might be to put the kit together. If difficult it defeats the reasonable cost of the kit in my opinion. Especially when one could get a FBW's Model J action complete and blued for 450.00 up to just a couple of years ago when we picked up some of the last if not the last.

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JLouis
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #34 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 6:36pm
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A good topic I have been competing for a little over 17 years now and have always used a traditional rifle or my current one by traditional design the FBW's action disqualifies it. Never considered myself to be handicapped just worked real hard to earn all that I have been able to acomplish during that time and could not have wished for more. To the point now and getting closer towards the end of my competitive years I really don't care as much as used to about the traditional rifles being a thing of the past. It's up to the governing bodies to worry about such things and not me any longer.
John Sidle was making 20X Target scopes with either 11/2, 13/4 or 2 inch objectives prior to 1917 and really no different than the Feckers, Supertarget spots etc. John D Kelly used one as well as one of his tubes sights Pope considered him to be the dean benchrest shooting. Some will argue the point they didn't exist but not worth my time to argue over. It's clearly noted in the history of the sport and I have pointed it out more times than I now care to remember and don't really care at this point to do it again. Pope actually worked for Sidel after he lost everything in the 1902 San Francisco earth quake.
Cummins also made an enternaly adujustabe scope way proir to 1917.

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« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2018 at 6:59pm by JLouis »  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #35 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 6:46pm
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Quote:
 


Of the scopes I mentioned...the rules are clear.  They're Not pre-1917 & Not reproductions. Lyman's specifically allowed.  Ban a Malcolm by nitpicking rules? 
  But, who'd protest the use?  Certainly 'in the spirit of the rules'.  
If newly made, would be in the same category as the DZ & MVA. 

If the rules are changed, what changes? 
If the cut-off date were Raised to pre-1941; it'd permit most of the scopes that were available to the founders of the ASSRA.  


"Any pre-1917 externally adjusted telescopic sight or faithful reproductions thereof. Lyman, Unertl, Fecker, and Litchert scopes are specifically allowed."  Reading the I assume all Lymans and Unertls are allowed too. 

ISSA rules do not even mention the word "Traditional." (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2018 at 9:39pm by Schuetzenmiester »  

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JLouis
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #36 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 6:50pm
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BobZ below are the ISSA Traditional Class Rules.

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frnkeore
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #37 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:11pm
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I don't know why the ASSRA board or Schuetzenmeister is absent from this discussion but, I've yet to hear anyone recite what the rules where instituted, to accomplish. 

As I remember (they can correct me, if I'm wrong), it was so that modern shooters could "compete" with the ODG's, as directly as possible, with the equipment they had access to, made "prior to the onset of WWI". It wasn't a class, for rifles to just look traditional.

It's my recollection that, that was the soul reason. That's why you can not use Millers, FBW, Winfry or any other design, that isn't a repro of the pre WWI actions. Borchardts used a striker action but, you can't use a Miller, Hoch or any other modern striker.

Based on the original purpose of the "Traditional" class, can anyone tell me how you can actually compete with the ODG's using a 1" Programmer?

The Lyman 438 is a Stevens design, that Lyman carried over from their purchase of Stevens. The Wallensak, Mossberg and Marlins are designed the same as the 438, regarding the optic's, so they are repro's of the 438. Of the limited number of Stevens scopes that I've seen, they are also, variations of the 438's construction.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:16pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #38 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:24pm
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Good points, Frank.

I like RSW's idea for the powers that be at ASSRA, ISSA and WSU to appoint a team to revise the rules to a common standard for all three organizations.
The game is expensive enough as is for young blood newcomers to enter into it, and being able to put together a scoped rifle that will meet the same requirement for all three organizations reduces the financial burden required to enter the game, as well as increasing the opportunities to pull the trigger using the same setup.
The easier you can make it to enter into and play the game, the longer the game has a chance to continue on into future years.
« Last Edit: Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:41pm by BP »  

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JLouis
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #39 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:27pm
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Not trying to be rude but why are you leaving the Sidel's out of the discussion along with the Cummins both prior to 1917.
  

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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #40 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:32pm
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Cataract rifle scopes too, that preceded the Stevens scope line?
Have seen a couple here and there.
  

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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #41 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:56pm
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Can someone please define "ODG"
Thanks!
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #42 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 8:02pm
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The "Old Dead Guys" who actually shot and set the records back in the Golden Age.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #43 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 8:18pm
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JLouis wrote on Jul 21st, 2018 at 7:27pm:
Not trying to be rude but why are you leaving the Sidel's out of the discussion along with the Cummins both prior to 1917.

I wasn't leaving out any pre WWI scope maker. What I listed was commonly available Stevens type, repro scopes, that can be found on Ebay weekly at a price, a lot less than any Lyman Jr, TS, STS, Unertl or Fecker.

If you can find them, use them and there is nothing stopping, anyone from reproing any scope made prior to WWI.

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Re: Traditional rifle scope rules
Reply #44 - Jul 21st, 2018 at 8:41pm
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Since I am the one that started this thread, I will state my opinion. 
I posted the  question because a friend asked my opinion regarding a scope he wanted to buy and I told him that I was under the impression that for Traditional rifle, the tube had to be 3/4" or less. When I read the rule, I could not find that part, so I posted the question here.
I just wanted clarification on the rule, which I have received, so THANKS!
As far as the rule is concerned, its fine with me. I shoot several Lyman STSs and Unertls with the 3/4" tube and they work for me. The Unertl with the 1" tube is on my rimfire rifle which does not have a traditional class anyway.
At the Eau Claire regional, we had nine out of approx. 30 shooters who were in the Traditional Rifle Class. Traditional rifles were well represented at the Davenport Schuetzenfest also, so I think the interest in the traditional rifle class is alive and well. 
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