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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) bullet choice for 40/65 (Read 15614 times)
beltfed
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #30 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 3:28pm
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Joe, 
Good you have those slightly shorter bullets for better stability in those slower twist barrels,especially the shorter one.
FWIW, Jim Kluskens won the Lodi Midwest Midrange 
Regional (300,500,600yds) with his 1.25" long dual diameter Elliptical PP bullet from his 18 twist 40-65. It also shot well for him over at Alma, MI in BPTR Sillywet. Knocked down the Rams very well.
This length is ideal for the 18 twist 40 cals. 
beltfed/arnie
  
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Old-Win
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #31 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 4:02pm
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Joe, those Ron Long bullets that you show are just what I was thinking of when I brought up the 38-55 schuetzen shooters. I wonder if there's anybody still making a copy of that for the .40? Looks a lot like my .32 Dave Mos.  He was getting back into the mould business but then immediately must have gotten another job. I sure like the one on right. Bob
« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2018 at 4:20pm by Old-Win »  
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frnkeore
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #32 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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This is Ron Longs 40 cal bullets, from my mold it's for a .408 grooved barrel (top). the bottom is the .408 groove bullet enlarged for .410 barrels.

The one  with the .180 meplat is one that I drew for a forum member so, that he could get it made at Accurate Molds. If you look on their site, you'll find the one he had made.

Brooks can make the .110 meplat bullet, using these drawings. 

I drew the bullets with a radius groove, because that's what I prefer, they where originally tapered grooves but, the depth is the same.

Frank
  

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beltfed
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #33 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 6:40pm
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Not meaning to "throw stones" but it is noted 
that the Ron Long bullets all have groove dia 
drive bands all the way to the actual ogive.
Depending on the chamber, need to be seated
rather deep in the case. As in reduced powder capacity. 
As compared to tapered designs with front bands
at or close to land dia
beltfed/arnie
  
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beltfed
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #34 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 6:42pm
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Duly noted that the ron long design does have the first band at 0.403. "kind of towards land" diameter.
and then 0.406.   
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #35 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 8:19pm
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Gyroscopic Spin (Sg) for Joe's bullets:

Caliber      0.408      Inches            
Bullet Weight      338      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.208      Inches            
Barrel Twist      20      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.59      

           
Caliber      0.408      Inches            
Bullet Weight      400      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.35      Inches            
Barrel Twist      18      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1200      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.70                  
  
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oneatatime
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #36 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 8:52pm
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Bottom line is they are both stable in the twists he lists and the heavier bullet is a little more so should be better at longer range - just. But you knew that.
  
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Mick B
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #37 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 9:16pm
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Arnie
I can't seem to find that JIM409410M4 bullet you mentioned, at least not in the BACo catalogue I have, which could be out of date.
I do have their mould #JIM409420M2 which is tapered and also shoots well but as I found no improvement in accuracy at 100 M using it with slightly heavier powder charges I reverted to the 400 gr bullet using either 60gr of Wano PP or 58gr of 1 1/2 Swiss. 
If I was shooting at long distance I would just get another 45/90 and be done with it. As our club shoots are at either 100 or 200 m Shooting the 45/90 off the bench was a waste of powder and lead, plus unpleasant recoil.
Mike.
  
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beltfed
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #38 - Jun 26th, 2018 at 10:41pm
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Mike, 
I do agree with you about not needing firewalling loads for
100,200 yds bench shooting.
That is part of the reason I am suggesting you look at lighter bullets such as mine.  Light recoil, etc.
My comments on the 409410M4 Kidwell bullet is its great
success and the fact that you are ordering from Buffalo arms. It could be loaded light for your short range use.
Go on line to Buffaloarms.com to look up the bullet.
Its essentially the same as your M2, but with three reduced front drive bands.
Otherwise, I would be happy to provide a drg of my 370 gr Elliptical profile Minigroove tapered bullet. Earlier, I was shooting it over only 70 gr Swiss 1.5 in fireformed (from 45-70 Rem) cases- about 1375fps and accurate in 16 twist.
Steve Brooks cut mine and one for Cliff Gregg so far.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #39 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 12:26am
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Sg= Gyroscopic Spin Factor (or Gyroscopic Stability Rating) which is determined based on:

Caliber
Bullet Weight
Bullet Length
Barrel Twist
Muzzle Velocity
Temperature
Atmospheric Pressure


Factor too low then insufficient bullet spin (less than 1.4) and the bullet tumbles somewhere down range.

Factor over 2.0 the bullet is starting to spin too fast - and may start to affect accuracy.

Long range shooters (over 1000 yards) try to get their bullets over 2.0 (overspin) to compensate for drag for the longer time in the air.

Gyroscopic stability must be achieved first for good accuracy and then dynamic stability becomes more important for longer distance accuracy because of (center of balance, and nose shape).
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2018 at 12:33am by Schuetzendave »  
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Swede
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #40 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 5:12am
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What alloy are you using when you have the tapered bullets? and for the DDEPP?
I have a 40-65 with 1-18" twist and have so far had the best results with the RCBS 40-400 BPS

Attach a pic from last competition 6shots 100m prone with sling

« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2018 at 5:35am by Swede »  
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beltfed
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #41 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:23am
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Swede,
My alloy for the Elliptical Minigroove bullet and for the DDEPP is approximately as follows:
94.5% lead
4.5% Antimony
1% tin
Hardness as tested with Lee tester is about 14 BHN
--- I make it using 90% clip on WW plus 10% Linotype
beltfed/arnie
  
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beltfed
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #42 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:24am
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BTW, Swede,
That is very good shooting esp prone/sling
beltfed/arnie
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #43 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:33am
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Your all Greeked up Dave.

That is how they convert you at University and teach you about the benefits of using science. 

I know some people prefer HilBilly reckoning.

But in the end Joe you know you will probably have the last say.
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2018 at 9:45am by Schuetzendave »  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: bullet choice for 40/65
Reply #44 - Jun 27th, 2018 at 1:23pm
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When you purchase a rifle you need to find the length of bullet that best matches the rifle barrel twist.

The Miller Gyroscopic Stability caluculator lets you check out potential bullet moulds before you purchase them.

Faster spinning bullets are better than slower bullets so I choose bullets with a Sg of 1.8 to 1.9 using the velocity I intend to shoot and using normal weather conditions.

That way if I shoot at higher elevations, or if the weather pressure changes or the temperature changes My bullet will still provide great accuracy because it will be within the gyroscopic spin zone that is suitable for my barrel's rifle twist.

If you are close to 1.4 your bullet may perform well but will begin to tumble with certain weather changes or at greater distances (because it is not spinning fast enough).


Many people are successsful overspinning their bullets (Sg> 2.0) but again stability and accuracy can become less stable as weather conditions change.


Yes you can test a bullet mould under ideal conditions and it may perform well - at least until the weather conditions change.


For the best performance it is best to find a bullet that has the right bullet length for your barrel's twist to provide a spin that will be accurate under all weather conditions.

The ideal spin is when you have a Sg between 1.4 and 2.0 however top successful shooters generally shoot bullets in their rifles that are closer to 2.0 or just over 2.0 for long range shooting (>1,000 yards).


With a new rifle you can determine the barrel twist.
Next step is to assess bullet moulds you are interested in purchasing using their bullet weight and bullet length in the Miller Gyroscopic formula.

It will advise you which ones are definitely acceptable for your rifle's barrel.

That way you will end up purchasing fewer bullet moulds to test - since it will eliminate some that may not have the appropriate spin in your barrel's twist.
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2018 at 1:38pm by Schuetzendave »  
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