Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jul 1^st, 2018 at 1:55pm:


Which "substitute" ??? Their chemical compositions and physical properties are rather diverse. About all they have in common is 1) they are bulk powders and 3) make smoke.

Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jul 1^st, 2018 at 2:51pm:


Lots of unknowns.  

When  the Mad Monk analysed the ones available at that time they were all more corrosive than BP and he was not impressed with their performance compared to the real deal. I wish he were around to elaborate. My emails from him are long gone  [/quote]

Yes, One was really an "explosive" sugar.

777 came after he died, if I remember correctly. Buckhorn 209 is much more recent and I hear generally good things about it. Alliant black MZ is really recent. I doubt that most of the Nay-Sayers of "substitutes" have ever used any of these. I have not used Buckhorn 209 or Alliant black MZ. I would be quite willing to try either, should my meager stash of 777 be gone or too little.

I do use Swiss when rules and regs require "real BP" -- no complaints or difficulty developing good loads. I have long considered it the "Gold Standard" for modern BPs, to extent I will not use any others.

There is another perspective on these "BP Subs". That is the transitional powders developed during years between pure BPs and pure white powders.

Many years ago I bought a nearly pristine Swedish Roller that had been converted to 8X58RD, one of the transition military rifle calibers that was designed for the coming white powder but loaded with advanced BP and mantled bullets initially. There was also extensive, more-or-less unofficial testing of these rifles with early German powders that were neither pure BPs or pure white powders and were much like similar powders developed and used in BP cartridges in USA in late 1880s until sometime in early 1900s. Without knowing in detail the chemical compositions and performance of Buckhorn 208 or Alliant black MZ, it seems reasonable to consider these new powders as modern versions.

I found in Swedish archives in Swedish Royal Library Swedish reports from testers of these transitional powders in these same rifles. They worked well and gave downrange performance (velocities, trajectories, group sizes) very much like I get with 20 grains or so of IMR 4759 under 200-250 gr cast GC bullets in this unaltered Swedish military roller.

Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jul 1^st, 2018 at 7:02pm:


So far as I know, there are some target shooting venues that nix use of duplexing BP, BPCR for example. For any hunting not restricted to classical BP - no duplexing, I much preferred 777ffg because of its lack of need for quick, often daily, cleaning. Buckhorn 209 and Alliant black MZ maybe are even more suitable. If classical BP is not required, I have always used nitro powders.

I don't know anybody that gets offended that someone would shoot the subs, I do know a bunch that wonder why, in a cartridge gun, when smokeless will do the same "no stink" and don't bother cleaning...
Just got my second 25 lb case of bp this year, and I haven't shot as much as I would like. It's not uncommon for me to go thru 3-4 cases a year.

In your 310 a pound of unique would yield you somewhere around 1400 rounds,