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Uechi
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Best BP substitute for accuracy
Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:51am
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Curious about opinions on black powder substitutes for cartridge shooting for accuracy? Alliant Black MZ, Blackthorn 209, Triple 7, Pyrodex etc? Accuracy, cleanup,price.
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #1 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:37am
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Here's my opinion. Just as dirty and nasty as the real thing, and even more costly than the extravagant waste of money that black is. Just an opinion.
  
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Uechi
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #2 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 12:17pm
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That seems to,apply to most but a lot  of reviews say Blackthorn 209 is considerably less messy and less corrosive. Don’t know have never used have you?
  
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #3 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 1:59pm
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Have only used Pyrodex and 777. 777 FFg is an excellent bulk smoky powder that has never given me any issues with corrosion, clean up or small groups. Used it in 44-40 for maybe a decade and thousands of rounds through a Brazilian W92 and Ruger Vaquero. Also used in 12 and 16 gauge trap loads -- even won BP trap shoots a few times. I routinely shot 10s to 100 or so rounds per day in single gun before wiping bore -- cleaned at end of day. Bullets were always soft cast with SPG lube. All bores remain in excellent condition.

For my uses it was equal to Swiss in performance and cheaper in these same guns and shooting conditions, cheaper mostly because about 20-30% less weight of powder used.
  
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4570mike
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #4 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 7:17pm
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I’ve been using BH209 for the last four years. 30 WCF, 32-40, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70 and 8.15X46R.  Have had good results in all these calibers.  Very consistent and won several matches (out to 500 yd) with it. It’s expensive and can be difficult to find sometimes.  I always get the 5 lb. bottles (maybe 2 at a time).  I even made it work in my .50 cal Hawkin; won a couple muzzle stuffing matches with it. Great stuff.  Smokes a bit and some think you are shooting Black. If only I could make it work in my ML shotgun........ Undecided
Mike.
  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #5 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 10:22pm
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Some 25 years a or so pretty much retired my modern shotguns in favor of a 12 ga double barreled percussion shotgun.  Dumb but happy I switched to Pyrodex after a year or so shooting ffl.  I never noticed in my 50 caliber percussion rifles but swinging on dove and quail there was an obvious delay between the percussion cap firing and the main charge going off with Pyrodex.  If you didn't follow through with the swing you shot behind every time.  I went back to ffl and never looked back.  Always shot duplex in cartridge rifles to keep fouling to a minimum.  Tom
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #6 - Jun 16th, 2018 at 11:02pm
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I haven't used any of these in years. But I did try Pyrodex and was less than impressed with the results in BPCR rifle. It wasn't good on brass either, and after looking at my brass a couple days later it had corroded so badly I had to toss it out.
My brother used it in his Ruger stainless percussion revolver and when he got around to cleaning it a few days after shooting it was so badly frozen up he had to send it off to Ruger for repair!

So if you choose to use the substitutes, be sure to clean everything just like you would after shooting real BP! Leaving them dirty like one would with smokeless will end up with sad results. They aren't BP, but they aren't smokeless either!
  

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ballardhepburnmich
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #7 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 8:39am
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Historically the substitute for black powder is the semi-smokeless and early smokeless powder of the day. That is still the best substitute for black powder. 
Lee
  
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KAF
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #8 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 10:17am
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When shooting Black Powder firearms, There is NO good substitute.
  
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Hiwall55
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #9 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 1:49pm
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I wholeheartedly agree with KAF.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #10 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 2:20pm
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Quote:
When shooting Black Powder firearms, There is NO good substitute.


That is what Bill Knight, aka, Mad Monk said.  He chemically analyzed powders from the 19th century up through current production as well as all the substituents. He was a consultant for Elephant to improve their product until they blew up the pant in Brazil. 
  

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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #11 - Jun 17th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jun 17th, 2018 at 2:20pm:
Quote:
When shooting Black Powder firearms, There is NO good substitute.


That is what Bill Knight, aka, Mad Monk said.  He chemically analyzed powders from the 19th century up through current production as well as all the substituents. He was a consultant for Elephant to improve their product until they blew up the pant in Brazil. 


Back when Bill Knight was actively testing and doing chemical analyses of real BPs and the then available smoke-making substitutes, Pyrodex was best of the bunch but suffered from having to use less than adequately pure components, especially potash for cost control. This resulted in some batches being more corrosive than others because of greater amounts of Na perclorates. Expose most any of the low corrosion-resistent, cheap steels often used in replica muzzle loaders and cartridge guns, especially those from Italy, and shooters that did not immediately fully clean bores of those guns reported "ruined" guns and often complained loudly. Those of us that used guns with modern, usually much more corrosion resistant steels, had happier experiences. My TC muzzle loader, Brazilian W92 and Ruger Vaqueros and Husqvarna hammer doubles had NO corrosion issues with Pyrodex with daily cleaning after shooting, and repeat, often more through cleaning next day.

As satisfactory as Pyrodex was for me, 777 is a much better powder, both as regards fouling, group size and need for immediate, through cleaning at end of each shooting day.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #12 - Jun 29th, 2018 at 8:01pm
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When shooting Black Powder firearms, There is NO good substitute.

Amen. Accept no substitute.
  

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JLouis
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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #13 - Jun 29th, 2018 at 9:00pm
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If one does not mind me asking why would one look for a substitute when BP is still around what is it that I might be missing?

JLouis
  

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Re: Best BP substitute for accuracy
Reply #14 - Jun 29th, 2018 at 9:34pm
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Uechi
To actually answer your question about BP substitutes, my best results have been with Pyrodex Select. With my 38-50 (Rem) I have shot 10-shot groups, double rest at 200 yards, muzzle loaded that were about 1 MOA (groups measured 2 inches give or take a little). Bullet seated with the base about 1/16 ahead of case mouth with .09 dry felt spacer wad at bullet base. No wiping between shots. Humidity 50-60% so I was able to shoot dirty.
This was with excellent range conditions, light breeze, no more than 3-5 MPH and approximately 60 degrees F temperature.
Pyrodex shot as well as my best straight black and duplex loads under similar conditions.
  

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