Hello:

     At the auction Sunday, there is a vey nice 1885 Winchester HW in 40-70 Ballard.  it also has about 100 orginal cases and a set of RCBS dies. It has a number 3 octagon barres that is 30" long and a SST.

      What should I expect to pay for this rifle and is it a good buy.  Could the barrel be rechambered and rebored to 45-70?

      Thoughts and comments?

                                            Tia,

                                            zeke

     Hi Marlinguy:

     I thought of reboring for several reason like if the bore was ruined, cases and components very difficult to source etc.  I was under the impression that the 45-70 case was too small for proper extraction.  The rifle in question is a 40-70 Ballard.

       I an not planning to flip the gun for profit but want it to play with as my 85 in 32-40.  That is why I asked about the amount thta I shou bid.  I only saw one other 40-70 Ballard 85 for sale, and the asking price was $3250.00 with no bids.

    Thanks for the prompt reply.

                                               zeke

If that rifle is "nice" it's worth saving- as is. If it's better than nice, jump on it fast. 

Too many possible points of decision to assess here. Condition of finish, mechanics, possible options and sights, etc. 
Also, check to see that it really is original stuff- who knows from what you tell us if it's already got a new barrel or something? Dunno. Good luck.

Those high walls in .32 spl, didn't grow on trees either. Good save.

Totally argree with Art and if doing the work yourself you can get a pre-profiled and polished blank of your liking that can also be made to fit your forearm from CPA at a very reasonable price and real joy to work with. They are actually ready to blue or rust blue when all of the machine work has been completed if properly protected when doing so. 

JLouis

calledflyer wrote on May 3^rd, 2018 at 1:47pm:


Was one of those early-smokeless guns made c.1900 when hardly anyone, even the US Army, realized that the salt from corrosive primers could ONLY be removed with water, not the new "nitro" solvents that were being hyped as all the smokeless shooter needed for bore care.

Red, I've got a .30US version that left the factory in 1895- probably one of the earliest ones in that caliber. If the bore was any better, it'd be new. My ol' .32-40 is even older, and it's barrel is also pristine. I know the old primer stories, even have collected old ammo, but I think that those that took good care of their rifles in the old days left these. The other ones were from lazy folks, or later guys who didn't care about these 'old guns' any more. Additionally, I think the East coast guns and others stored for years with uncleaned barrels suffered more than the ones out here might have. Have a friend who owns a '73 Winchester that was found in a closet of an abandoned house here in Nevada. Empty since the early thirties, from the depression. Great shooter it is- especially for free. 

Nah, john, it'll be a rifle in it's case or safe, a barrel stuck in a corner out of the way, and an extractor stuffed into a drawer somewhere else. Perfect conditions to lose yet another fine rifle to the 'modify it to suit yourself, we don't need history' movement. 
Then, in another hundred years, they'll be writing a book that says that Winchester offered high walls with stainless steel, gain twist rifling, and it's the most common one of all in .45-70. No mention will be made of .40-70 because you talked somebody into breaking up the last one on earth.

JLouis wrote on May 3^rd, 2018 at 3:30pm:


Maybe easy enough for the current owner to keep track of, but eventually the Grim Reaper comes along, or what's worse, senility.  Then, totally unpredictable things happen, and it's a rare situation when one's heirs care as much about your "stuff" as you once did.   

Old-Win wrote on May 3^rd, 2018 at 5:13pm:


Unlike the situation with some other Winchesters, like M. 70s, where rare calibers bring a premium, what enhances the value of any '85 is the popularity of the caliber among potential shooters, & generally speaking, bigger is better: .30-40 & .45-70 top the list, except for the .50s.  I've got a Deluxe HW I bought relatively cheap, because no one wanted a .32-20 HW...even though that's an uncommon chambering in the HW model.  (After trying unsuccessively for a yr to sell it, the dealer told me he was thinking of reboring it; that's when I made my offer.) 

I hate to point out the obvious but, Sometimes the thing to do when you acquire a rare version of a single shot and you are looking for one to build up is to sell the rarer one and buy one more suitable for rebuilding. You know, one that is common or has been extensively altered over the years. I know there is a tendency to want to hold on to the rifle you have but often it makes more sense to resell it and get one more suitable to your purpose.

marlinguy wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 9:34am:


Well, a fellow on the Winchester Collectors board sure ain't arousing much interest in the .38-90 HW he's trying to sell; first one in that caliber I've ever seen.

marlinguy wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 3:35pm:

And that light weight for diameter 38 cal 217 grain bullet used in the 38 Express doesn't really make it a great candidate for long range shooting.

I've broken down several old 1885's over the years to make customs.  I've been taken to task for doing so on this board.  My offer has always been the same:  If the rifle is worth keeping as a whole, it should be worth the sum of it's parts.   

Send me a MVA newly made (or C Sharps) receiver, a Green Mt. Barrel blank, and a Treebone or Crossno or CPA semi-inletted stock and I'll send you the old, tired original Winchester.  I haven't had anyone yet take me up on it, and those rifles had a rebirth into something that has been used by me and my family as they were intended to be used.

I did reline one that is somewhat rare.  I have an 1885 #4 barrel, 40-70ss, with known parentage tying it to Meachum and the last of the buffalo trade.  It had no rifling left, and was a brown gun.  I relined it with a quality, large diameter, fast twist liner and rechambered to a custom .40-70 chamber that allows it to use .405 brass.  Invisible liner, and changed the appearance of the rifle not at all.  I know that the rifle is not worth more with the relined bore than it was with the rotted out one; but everyone tells me what a shame that it is relined.  If I hadn't relined it and tried to sell it, everyone would have told me what a shame it was that it had a rotted out bore.  I also offered that rifle out for sale for the cost of a new reproduction, and had no takers.   

I am going to have to build a new 1885 or two, as I had some stolen recently.  I have new MVA receivers that I am going to use; not saving money by starting with a used rifle.  I can afford to pay the rate to use all new and will on these rifles.  Luckily, I still have the stock patterns; one of them was my wifes 1885 I detailed the build on a thread here a few years ago.  The other was my .38-72, which I have been able to start the replacement of by buying a similar one on the classifieds here recently.  It would be cheaper to start with an original rifle in decent condition, and rebuild it and sell the leftover parts than to start with new.  So much for "collector" value.

Now on whether using the original to save costs is right, is debatable.      Let the argument go on.......

Old-Win wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 6:07pm:


If the cartridges are as rare as the rifle, the original box the seller has should be worth several hundred by itself.