For your future reference as a bookmark on the computer
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Thanks for the info.  Another interesting thing to add to the collection!

-06

Not sure what you consider 'long range' for a 38cal, but one of the top 3 competitors at the BPCR Nats over the past 10yr, or so, shoots a 38-50. Last year he cleaned the stick animals 45/45 (that's 15/15 rams at 500m) and 9 chickens and got beat by a competitor (the eventual winner) who shot 43/45 and got 12 chickens. He shoots a 360gr Money bullet out of a 30" barrel with a 12" twist.

The year before his untimely demise (may he RIP) Dan Theodore was 2nd after day-1 at the 1000yd championship BPTR match at Ben Avery in Phoenix with his 38-70 (72?). He fell to something like mid-pack on day-2 and ended up somewhere at the bottom of the top-10 overall. Too bad he is gone as it would have been interesting to see where he took the 'big' 38cal.

This always puzzles me when I see the old 1800's and early 1900's twist rates, and then read so much talk today of what just can't work, or what you must have to be able to shoot accurately at certain distances.
I look at data for the 1874 Creedmoor rifles built by Remington and Sharps, and chambered in the old reworked.44-77 Bottleneck to hold 90 grs. of BP. How did these guns fire a 535 gr. bullets at 800-1000 yds. and get so many bullseyes at these distances? Were these guys supermen, or did they know something today's shooters don't?
You talk with modern long range shooters and they'll argue until they're blue in the face that the old twist rates wont stabilize those heavy 535 gr. bullets at these distances, yet they seemed to do it quite well 140 years ago? What changed?

Uberti 38-55 - 1:18 with the original 330gr Ideal 375166 or the Accurate clone of the 375166, 320gr ... Powley says Minimum Twist of 1:18 has a Sf of 3.20 @1105fps
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The bullet shoots MOA to 300yds and accurate as my eyes on the steels, 200 to 500m

Just a thought Val...

One thing that influences twist rates for long range shooting is wind conditions.   I have a reprint of Edwin Perry's book which summarizes the "state of the art" for long range shooting in 1880.   He includes windage values on score sheets and they are much lower for long range than anything I've ever experienced when shooting in the west.   Most long range shooters of today agree that marginal twist rates will work in calm conditions, but fall apart in strong gusty weather.   Nowadays most long range shooting is further west in the plains where the winds can be very strong.   

Chris.

gunlaker wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 1:58pm:


Thanks Chris. I agree that winds out west are indeed a bigger issue. Not just stronger, but not steady! They gust and swirl a lot, making it tough to read!
I still wonder how those shooting 140 years ago were able to shoot so well with much slower twist rates. Even with Creedmoor back in the East, and possibly milder winds, their shooting accuracy with very heavy bullets, and very slow twist rates seem amazing to me.
Most of my guns are originals with the old slow twist rates, and I shoot lighter bullets than many friends do with modern fast twist barrels. But I have played with heavier bullets in my .40-85 Ballard and .44-100 Ballard, and they do quite well with slow twist and heavy bullets.

Val today most are now trying to shoot through the wind instead of trying to understand what it takes to learn how to successfully shoot it. I think that is what now separates the old from the new with the old having by far better marksmanship skills. You are now seeing an increased lack of having those skills taking place in 200yd. Schuetzen events by trying to go to the faster twists and heavier bullets in an effort to try to make up for having a lack of those same marksmanship skills. 

JLouis