Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic I'm stumped (rifle ID?) (Read 3225 times)
Marlene
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 272
Joined: Oct 30th, 2015
I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:00pm
Print Post  
I'm usually pretty good at this, but I have no clue what these rifles are. Any help would be appreciated. Picture was taken in Palestine in the 1890s

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Redsetter
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3468
Location: New York
Joined: Aug 6th, 2013
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #1 - Feb 20th, 2018 at 10:34pm
Print Post  
Palestine, or rather Israel, was part of the Ottoman Empire before WWI, which equipped its army mainly with Mausers, but these men aren't soldiers--foreign travelers, if not brigands. Trigger guards look something like Lebels, but they'd have 2-piece stocks.  Why those breech covers?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rgchristensen
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1083
Joined: Jan 2nd, 2014
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #2 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 10:56am
Print Post  
    Looks like the negative was reversed, as t he bolt handles are on the wrong side.   Kinda looks like GRAS carbines, to me.

CHRIS 
RGChristtensen
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
oneatatime
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3847
Location: Rocky Mountains
Joined: Oct 30th, 2011
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #3 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 12:19pm
Print Post  
That's what I was thinking and that perhaps it was a tintype image which, since there is no negative, produces a reversed positive like a Daguerreotype. Tintypes were a favorite of itinerant photographers. And, single bandoliers were commonly worn over the left shoulder.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marlene
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 272
Joined: Oct 30th, 2015
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #4 - Feb 21st, 2018 at 6:41pm
Print Post  
Aha! Yes. They look like Gras carbines indeed. Thanks! I don't know much about the early single-shot bolt guns besides the Mauser.

It's later than tintype (and I have seen the original and know it's not). I wondered about the flip, but the gentleman on the left's hand on his knife had me second guessing that.

This is a mixed group of Russian Jewish refugees and Palestinians, working together to resist Ottoman imperial control. The notion of making a zionist ethnostate was not yet widely held by Jews in the region.

Reading a bit, it makes sense that they would have Gras rifles. The Gras was adopted by the Greeks and was widely used by Greek rebels seeking to throw off Ottoman control. It would not be surprising if they had supplied other anti-imperial forces elsewhere in the empire.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
waterman
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2825
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Joined: Jun 9th, 2004
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #5 - Feb 22nd, 2018 at 3:24am
Print Post  
I reversed the photo and enlarged it by 10 %.  The guy on the right has his hand up against the bolt handle.  Having all rifles of a single caliber was probably a tactical advantage.  But if they got their hands on a Turkish Mauser, they would use it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JWDreamstone
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 37
Location: Long Branch, New Jersey
Joined: Oct 11th, 2017
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #6 - Feb 23rd, 2018 at 7:25pm
Print Post  
Reversing The Photo French Gras Cabines, Forgers, or short Rifles
All single shots with the wide Trigger Guard
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marlene
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 272
Joined: Oct 30th, 2015
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #7 - Feb 24th, 2018 at 4:51pm
Print Post  
Thanks all

The guy in the hat that looks like he bought it before he left Kiev, and the fancy pants that make it clear he was a tailor before he took up farming and insurrection seems to be a relative of mine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: I'm stumped (rifle ID?)
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2018 at 9:34pm
Print Post  
Fascinating photo:   really wish I knew more about it.   I have seen somewhat similar photos but none near as sharp or detailed  

IF I were to WA-guess based on my studies of the area and era.
I'd be inclined to think they were a group of hired guards of mixed ethnicity common to the area who were retained under the services of a dragoman to guard / guide a party of merchants or early tourist-pilgrim-adventurers common to the era; a party that the photographer was part of. 
Most of the European nations had facilities and services in the area to care for such "pilgrims" from their own countries. Armed guards for hire were part of the pilgrim package which might explain the uniformity of the rifles------they might be working for the French group and might have a French mixed breed "officer" in command.
Based on what I see, the second from the left is probably a stray cossack-for-hire (not uncommon there--the Russian Orthodox has a strong position in the religious mangle that managed the"holy sites") judging by his costume, typical long cossack dagger, and vaguely asiatic features.
  The third from the left wearing the belted revolver with the sort of european look and clothing is probably the leader of the group and may be a french mixed breed or even an expatriate. 
The other three are probably from one of the Palestinian clans--but certainly not  of the desert Bedu.   there was not that much active insurrection against the Turk's at that time-that would be another 15-20 in the future,  Bedu bandits, religious rioters, and organized thieves were more of a threat to the pilgrim parties

At the time the photo was taken the area was called Palestine as part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire until the end of WW1. There was a small surviving old-Jewish population residing in enclaves and a few small settlements of very early Zionist settler/pioneers from the Jewish diaspora.
 
After WW1 it became a British "protective" Mandate still under the name Palestine.  Many more Jewish Zionists began emigrating causing open and violent conflicts with the long-time resident Arabic Palestinian population and the British who tried to mediate the conflicts. After WW2 there was a flood of refugees and survivor DPs from the Jewish populations of Nazified Europe.   When the British pulled out, the Jewish population declared independence and statehood. They adopted the name Israel, and bitter, and near unending war broke out between them and the surrounding Arabs.
« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2018 at 6:24pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint