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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How much pressure can a 30-20 case take? (Read 11601 times)
calledflyer
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #15 - Dec 20th, 2017 at 9:08pm
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Yes, I experienced the lopsided expansion now and then myself. Culled more than a few whole boxes. I keep each box of cases (20) segregated from others forever. Noted in my journal and on the box is the high/low and average dimension of that batch to the ten thousandths. Included is total number of firings as well as some other info. I don't load ammo by the hundreds like some, so it's not a big deal to take a periodic check of this stuff if there's any reason to do so. I like playing with my ammo- and cases are a pet with me more than most other stuff. Some hate it, not me. So far, so good. And, Ken Waters has been quite a bit of my learning.
  
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #16 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 2:30pm
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Couple more comments re use of true 32-20 HV loads:
1) Not mentioned already in this thread is the 80gr 1800+ fps load. While it hardly matches 22 Hornet trajectories, it was/is a solid 150M load for foxes, turkeys, etc. It was also very destructive of pelts and meat.

2) Older 32-20 rifles were often well worn, although not so much as many 44-40 rifles. Once deer were no longer readily available to hunt, 32-20 was often the "big rifle" (compared to the various RF cartridges). It was considered adequate for deer with well placed shots and apparently was widely so used.
  
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BP
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #17 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 3:51pm
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The 1910 REM-UMC catalog provides the following for their  32-20 loadings:

.32-20 Winchester and Marlin, Black and Smokeless     100gr bullet     1325fps
.32-20 Winchester and Marlin H. V., Smokeless            100gr bullet     1575fps

  

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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #18 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 5:05pm
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Here is reference to a wide range of 32-20 loads, from chamber pressures at BP levels to over 30.000 psi. I have used various of these loads over the decades but never checked the MVs with chronos.

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Have never been able to google up velocity for the 80gr HV, rifles only load from circa 1940-1950s. My one box was bought in 1953. The 1800+fps I posted earlier is from memory and is consistent with published loading.
  
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #19 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 8:34pm
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I don't recall that PACO was especially detailed about the timelines for the firearms and the various 32WCF High Velocity loadings.

What PACO doesn't appear to mention is that:

Winchester Repeating Arms did not produce the 32-20 80gr OPE/HP cartridge loading...
     that loading was introduced after production of the Model 1885 rifles had already ceased and any remaining inventory of 1885 component parts were liquidated, and after OLIN and his sons had purchased and absorbed the WRA bankruptcy assets under the WESTERN CARTRIDGE COMPANY.

The REM-UMC 32-20 80gr HP loading, which REM-UMC sold under the Hi Speed label (their earlier HIGH VELOCITY labeled version used the 100gr jacketed Soft Point bullet), wasn't introduced until after the Rem catalogs only referenced their singles shots under the headings of Component Parts, and concurrent with the production of the Remington Model 25 pump action.  

  

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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #20 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 9:21pm
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BP wrote on Dec 21st, 2017 at 8:34pm:
I don't recall that PACO was especially detailed about the timelines for the firearms and the various 32WCF High Velocity loadings.

What PACO doesn't appear to mention is that:

Winchester Repeating Arms did not produce the 32-20 80gr OPE/HP cartridge loading...
     that loading was introduced after production of the Model 1885 rifles had already ceased and any remaining inventory of 1885 component parts were liquidated, and after OLIN and his sons had purchased and absorbed the WRA bankruptcy assets under the WESTERN CARTRIDGE COMPANY.

The REM-UMC 32-20 80gr HP loading, which REM-UMC sold under the Hi Speed label (their earlier HIGH VELOCITY labeled version used the 100gr jacketed Soft Point bullet), wasn't introduced until after the Rem catalogs only referenced their singles shots under the headings of Component Parts, and concurrent with the production of the Remington Model 25 pump action.  



Interesting information, perhaps, to someone but, hardly for those of us that use our 32-20s for hunting, etc,  Currently I only have an original 1885 Win LW, primarily for hunting and now and then for a MS shoot. For us Paco's info has been quite useful. Mostly I currently use loads with 4227 and 4759 that were developed well before I was born. They serve me well for hunting turkey, etc. out to 150M max, but mostly at 70-80M.
  
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #21 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 10:07pm
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svartkruttgris#369 wrote on Dec 21st, 2017 at 9:21pm:
BP wrote on Dec 21st, 2017 at 8:34pm:
I don't recall that PACO was especially detailed about the timelines for the firearms and the various 32WCF High Velocity loadings.

What PACO doesn't appear to mention is that:

Winchester Repeating Arms did not produce the 32-20 80gr OPE/HP cartridge loading...
     that loading was introduced after production of the Model 1885 rifles had already ceased and any remaining inventory of 1885 component parts were liquidated, and after OLIN and his sons had purchased and absorbed the WRA bankruptcy assets under the WESTERN CARTRIDGE COMPANY.

The REM-UMC 32-20 80gr HP loading, which REM-UMC sold under the Hi Speed label (their earlier HIGH VELOCITY labeled version used the 100gr jacketed Soft Point bullet), wasn't introduced until after the Rem catalogs only referenced their singles shots under the headings of Component Parts, and concurrent with the production of the Remington Model 25 pump action.  



Interesting information, perhaps, to someone but, hardly for those of us that use our 32-20s for hunting, etc,  Currently I only have an original 1885 Win LW, primarily for hunting and now and then for a MS shoot. For us Paco's info has been quite useful. Mostly I currently use loads with 4227 and 4759 that were developed well before I was born. They serve me well for hunting turkey, etc. out to 150M max, but mostly at 70-80M.


My 32WCF chambered rifles and revolvers ARE used for hunting, Gris.
I don't eat paper, and I detest bloodshot meat, which I consider a waste both to the bird or animal, and to those gathered around the table as well.
As others have already mentioned, Ken Waters has provided excellent guidance for many long years now, and will continue to do so, as long as one is willing to open his articles, books, and supplements from time to time.
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #22 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 10:21pm
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Actually, at this point I do not have any need for additional 32-20 load data, having loads that have served me well on various hunts with current rifle. Somewhere I have at least one Ken Waters book. It was once interesting, perhaps even useful. But it has no 32-20 load data.
  
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #23 - Dec 21st, 2017 at 11:33pm
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You don't have Pet Loads, then. It's THE book we are speaking of here. The individual articles were from [u]Handloader[u] magazine and assembled into a loose leaf book, to which supplements could be added as they became available. Later versions were printed in fixed page style. The original already had the .32-20 in it, and the strength of various actions is featured in many of the articles as the need came up. 
Even if you had read the book he co-authored with Ned Roberts there would have been info on that cartridge. So, I believe you have made a mistake in whatever author yer thinking of. Doubt it was Waters.
  
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #24 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 10:10am
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Actually, I did get info from "Pet Loads" for 32-20 via a fellow shooter. They maybe provided slightly more info than I already had for 32-20 for many years. My specific 32-20 still liked best the loads I had already found. 

What little load testing I have done is for bullets not previously tried. Two were slightly better than previous ones.
  
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #25 - Dec 22nd, 2017 at 9:41pm
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ShockedWOW   

Here I am tuning back in after getting side tracked a bit .

Now I intend to take it all in ..in time.

My purpose for this rifle build is for a quiet  small game getter for the pot and a back yard slayer.
With maybe used on bigger stuff in an opportunistic encounter.
With the  ability to shoot larger weights at reasonable velocity
I like to shoot around the speed of sound for the increase in wind bucking and not have to worry about going into the turbulence zone.
To shoot out at 200yrd mark then I'm not really sure if this case will stand up  to lots use pushing a 187gn @1400 fps if I need to go that fast.
Now 10 reloads is not much in my book.That means I'd use up 5 to 10 cases in a days shooting at the range.
No it won't be a purpose built benchrest gun or perchbelly pronged wonder either.

Not that I'm not prone to trying to shoot  some resemblance to a half decent effort thou.
Something like a more the lines of a english rook and rabbit rifle if i can manage something.

More likely just a std martini cadet  chopped up abomination with original furniture.
I even plan to surface pit the barrel before bluing to make it blend in more with the hundred years of getting banged about and neglected in storage.
  
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #26 - Dec 23rd, 2017 at 11:07am
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It sounds like your working against yourself a bit.

If the goal is to stay out of the trans sonic turbulence you’re setting up to do exactly that. You either need to get a bullet that will fly well through it, limit your range to about 50 yards, or drop your velocity to sub sonic around 1000 fps. 

A 187 grain bullet at 1400 fps will basically be in the worst possible velocity range, 950-1350 fps the entire 200 yards. So in many ways it doesn’t make sense to push it that hard for really no gain other than less drop. 

As far as noise, unless your running a suppressor it won’t mattter much, but using less powder in general, means less noise. 

A good, 170+ grain bullet, well placed, will have no problem cleanly taking game up to medium sized deer at subsonic velocities.

Pushing to a limit of 1400 fps vs a comfortable 1300, really gives no advantage if avoiding turbulence and prolonging brass life is the goal.
  
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Re: How much pressure can a 30-20 case take?
Reply #27 - Dec 24th, 2017 at 2:26am
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FWIW,

I' ve messed around with my30-20 and several heavier (for calibre) bullets, weights between 150 and 175.  All of those propelled by BP, of course at subsonic velocities (1050 fps or thereabouts).  Shoots perfectly out to 200, even shoots very well at 300.
Still waiting for the new barrel to be installed on the rifle, so that I can start working up loads for what will be my new short-range BP match rifle.
  
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