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Strength of older single shots using smokeless (Read 23563 times)

Bearskinner Participating Member Offline Posts: 13 Location: N. Idaho, Alaska Joined: Nov 29^th, 2017	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #15 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 8:18am	Print Post
	Fortunately the shop I acquired it from, is also a manufacturer and they did a complete inspection and clean on it. Otherwise it would be a $600. Wall hanger. I don’t ever plan on using hot or even warm loads in it, as I do understand the strength of metals from over 100 years ago, is nothing like modern firearms can handle. I appreciate any concerns of firing smokeless in a blackpowder firearm, and take them seriously.


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Premod70 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 873 Location: North Carolina Joined: Jan 16^th, 2016	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #16 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 1:32pm	Print Post
	Bearskinner, I appreciate your understanding of the rifles limitations, too many don't. Also, welcome to the forum.


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4473 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #17 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 6:12pm	Print Post
	My Colt 1911 is 102 years old this year (sobering isn't it). Maybe I should start shooting black in it.


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Longdistance1 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 468 Location: Amidon, ND Joined: Feb 11^th, 2013	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #18 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 8:42pm	Print Post
	I suppose that now I'll have to work up a blackpowder load for my 1878 Borchardt in 225 Winchester, now that it's 139 years old. LD1


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Premod70 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 873 Location: North Carolina Joined: Jan 16^th, 2016	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #19 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 9:18pm	Print Post
	Longdistance1 wrote on Dec 6^th, 2017 at 8:42pm: I suppose that now I'll have to work up a blackpowder load for my 1878 Borchardt in 225 Winchester, now that it's 139 years old. LD1 Let's see, I have a original 78 Sharps and since your 78 can withstand a 50,000+psi cartridge I can use the same loads as those listed for the Ruger#1 in 45-70.,,....right?......I think not.


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7728 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #20 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 9:36pm	Print Post
	One thing forgotten is what happens if a case ruptures. Actions built for high pressure cartridges have a path for gas to follow if something goes wrong. Look at the hole left side of 03 actions. CPA added a escape hole bottom of the breech block. Original Stevens did not have it. Any single shot action built for low pleasure Black Powder cartridge loads should be loaded conservatively, no matter how strong it appears. Case let’s go the gas is going to come out the sides of the breech block or worse. Even High Walls perhaps the strongest SS loaded with higher pressure cartridges like the 30/40 has a different tolarence when it’s used with a thin case like the 45/70 My opinion Boats


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #21 - Dec 6^th, 2017 at 10:59pm	Print Post
	Premod70 wrote on Dec 6^th, 2017 at 9:18pm: Longdistance1 wrote on Dec 6^th, 2017 at 8:42pm: I suppose that now I'll have to work up a blackpowder load for my 1878 Borchardt in 225 Winchester, now that it's 139 years old. LD1 Let's see, I have a original 78 Sharps and since your 78 can withstand a 50,000+psi cartridge I can use the same loads as those listed for the Ruger#1 in 45-70.,,....right?......I think not. Don't tempt me, please.

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Premod70 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 873 Location: North Carolina Joined: Jan 16^th, 2016	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #22 - Dec 7^th, 2017 at 9:44am	Print Post
	Boats, I agree and will add that a bunch of folks understand the burst case and the damage from the gases but fail to consider the pressure increases of smokeless powder when there is a obstruction whether a wad or otherwise. The best of steels will fail and the vast majority of black powder era actions are not designed to protect the shooter from high pressure gases although they will do a fine job with the pressures of black powder. What is considered a low pressure load can be turned into a high pressure bomb with smokeless powder, something that is not doable with black powder since it is at it's peak pressure from the get go. LD1, I'm more than willing to learn and will appreciate any knowledge you may share on the subject.


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Kurt_701 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1052 Location: Missouri Joined: May 20^th, 2004	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #23 - Dec 7^th, 2017 at 9:56am	Print Post
	Ken Waters" Pet Loads" offers some input on the strength of various BP era actions in the 45/70 section. He breaks BP action down into three groups based on strength. He also offers some smokeless loads. This site offers a download but use caution in downloading. I HAVE NOT DOWNLOADED FROM THIS SITE. They offer a free trial but want to sell a subscription. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #24 - Dec 8^th, 2017 at 9:09am	Print Post
	Not long ago I joined a bullet casting forum. Since then when I see what people do with their hand loads I have lost all hope for humanity. Darwin is shurly at work here. The general frame of mind is to take any cartridge and stuff as much powder in it as possible if there is room left over stuff some Dacron in there to take up the space. Cast some bullets out of anything you can find as long as it's hard. Then scrub the bores unti its squeaky clean in your bore scope. Wonder why it isn't accurate. 40 Rod


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18055 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #25 - Dec 8^th, 2017 at 11:20am	Print Post
	boats wrote on Dec 6^th, 2017 at 9:36pm: low pleasure Black Powder cartridge loads Boats I like that! Not everyone is experienced enough to own and shoot BP era single shots and reload with smokeless powders. And those who do so with success haven't just tossed a case full of smokeless in and shot them in their guns. It almost sounds like the general consensus I hear from those shooting black powder is that everyone is too stupid to use smokeless in BP era guns, and black powder should be used instead, because all these idiots can't hurt themselves using black powder. When smokeless powders were introduced before 1900, almost everyone immediately switched to smokeless. Even the cartridge manufacturers were quick to offer almost every cartridge they offered in BP, in smokeless cartridges. And back then they didn't have nearly the amount of load data we have to reference today. I'm amazed so many guns survived, and so many shooters too, considering how dangerous smokeless powders are in these old guns. Those oldtimers must have been smarter than we are today? Schuetzen shooters were probably some of the first to switch to smokeless, and with results that soon found every shooter using smokeless in mostly BP era guns. But somehow today we've dumbed down the general gun owners and it's no longer safe to load smokeless in old guns.

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QuestionableMaynard8130 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4144 Location: Benton Harbor MI Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #26 - Dec 8^th, 2017 at 12:46pm	Print Post
	I suspect that the early smokeless powders were created as exactly that. loads similar to the standard BL loads but with less smoke and less powder fouling------with military-battlefield usage driving the need/solution process. Fouled barrels and smoke bedimmed battlefields caused no end of tactical problems. I think the chemistry of burning curves and cartridge/barrel pressure were just figured out by evolutionary process. As long as projectiles were basically lubed lead pressure was not too much of a problem as long as it was a basic combustion problem typical of BP. But as powder chemistry advanced, the compounds became more complex and the ignition lead to rapid detonation rather than combustion and the pressures stated spiking.
	« Last Edit: Dec 8^th, 2017 at 6:00pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 3973 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #27 - Dec 8^th, 2017 at 12:49pm	Print Post
	Hear, Hear, Vall. That's just so darn to the point that it'll stand as my case whenever the subject comes up. I've shot smokeless in every black powder era gun I've ever used. Mentored by the older generation, and the writings of those like Ken Waters, I've enjoyed them for nearly forty years. And, in addition, I've managed to escape Boats' "low pleasure" of black powder- wads, grease cookies, buckets of water to soak cases, filthy guns, stinky smoke and irate people at the range. Considerable savings in cash to boot. Good job you two. Share the day's attaboy


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18055 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #28 - Dec 8^th, 2017 at 1:33pm	Print Post
	QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Dec 8^th, 2017 at 12:46pm: I suspect that the early smokeless powders were created as exactly that. loads similar to the standard BL loads but with less smoke and less powder fouling This is indeed true with some early smokeless powders! Fortunately some of the early smokeless powder cans had load data on the back, and one can of "Schuetzen Smokeless" by Du Pont that I own says it is designed as a bulk powder to fill the case, just like black powder. But others I own such as Schultze (also by Du Pont) were much faster burning, and it specifies the can of powder is "about 7 oz.", but is equal to one pound of black powder. So shooters had to figure out the ratio, and know what to do when using this powder in BP cartridges. From what I've seen of early smokeless powders, they can be equal to BP, but more often a bit faster. And very soon after introduction they went mostly to faster burning powders. Most people generally accept that smokeless powders came out around the mid 1890 era. But that's actually 10 years after the French came out with the first smokeless powders! The 8mm Lebel was the first cartridge introduced that was loaded with smokeless powder. The Lebel's 8mm ammo reached velocities of 2,000 fps in a gun made in 1886! The previous French Gras was a 1400 fps cartridge. It pretty much revolutionized ammunition, and caught everyone off guard with it's performance. Took the rest of the world a decade to catch up!
	« Last Edit: Dec 8^th, 2017 at 1:41pm by marlinguy »
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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Strength of older single shots using smokeless Reply #29 - Dec 8^th, 2017 at 5:40pm	Print Post
	The old WRA catalogs listed the Black Powder charge grain weight, bullet weight and lead/tin ratio for their various factory loaded cartridges. And while WRA listed various versions loaded with smokeless as they became available, WRA did NOT provide smokeless loading info, and warned against reloading with the new fangled smokeless powders that came out during that era. Considering that the modern-day ammunition companies often use smokeless powders that are not identical to the over-the-counter lots we can currently purchase, I think the ammunition companies had very good reasons way back then for staying silent with their early smokeless powder load data.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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