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BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? (Read 5204 times)

Lefty38-55 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 366 Location: New England Joined: Sep 11^th, 2013	BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Oct 20^th, 2017 at 7:27pm	Print Post
	Haven't put black powdah through my CPA ... yet, but now that she's been checkered by Tim L-S, I want to show her off at an upcoming BP only (even cannons will be there) shoot. Using a 20:1 cast 255-grn bullet, as she was sub-MOA @ using my std 4759 smokeless only load. Have SPG for BP loads, as lube.

	All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups ...
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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1299 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #1 - Oct 20^th, 2017 at 10:57pm	Print Post
	Lefty38-55 If you are going to shoot duplex with 4759 as priming charge and breech seat or muzzle load, I can offer some pointers. However, if you are going to shoot fixed, I have no hands-on experience.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #2 - Oct 20^th, 2017 at 11:09pm	Print Post
	I started down my long trail of BPCR shooing with a 38-55 shooting duplex in fixed ammo. Black powder has changed so my loads are irrelevant today. 8 to 10% by weight smoleless, 4759, 4227, or Reloader 7 with enough BP to get a slight compression should get you started. I always found overall cartridge length to be more critical than the loads and powder compression the next most critical. Good luck.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Lefty38-55 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 366 Location: New England Joined: Sep 11^th, 2013	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #3 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 7:25am	Print Post
	Thanks all! Fixed ammo w/ this bullet.

	All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups ...
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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #4 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 10:20am	Print Post
	I honestly don't see the need to duplex. I have sent a lot of bullets down range with straight black and dont have any problems. Black is not hard to clean with the right solvent and there are a number of them on the market these days. The big challenge is finding the load your rifle likes. Mostly that is just seeing how much compression the powder likes. Swiss doesn't seem to like much and I really don't know about OE. I still have a lot of Goex Ctg on hand and for the most part it seems to like a lot of compression. Now this is for straight cases. Tomorrow I will be shooting a bottleneck with just about .030" compression. They are fire forming loads so I don't have a lot of hope but we shall see. Sam


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #5 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 1:06pm	Print Post
	The point of duplex is to clean out the fouling. There are lots of ways to deal with it. Depending on the humidity, duplexing may or may not be a significant advantage. It certainly is whete conditions change rapidly or there are time constraints. The Brits certainly thought it was at Ottawa in 1993 at the shooter's meeting. Their position was if there were going to be anymore long range BP matches, they would be straight B P. There are limits to the amount of smokeless that can be safely used. The American Rifleman published an article saying about 30% or more smokeless is very hazardous. The Canadian target rifle rules limited it to 25%. The American rule here in PNW was 10%. I don't think there were any other LR matches in those days other than the ML, but am not sure nor what their rule was if there were any.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Lefty38-55 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 366 Location: New England Joined: Sep 11^th, 2013	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #6 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 5:28pm	Print Post
	Found this in the archives ... from Ideal #38 Book, 5.5-grns of 4759 and 38-grns FFg. Now my DUMB question... that BP would be measured by VOLUME as all my matchlocks & flintlocks are? Not 'grains' by weight, like smokeless is measured?

	All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups ...
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #7 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 6:15pm	Print Post
	I would assume it is weight in a Lyman handbook if they do not specify volume. It really doesn't matter, fill the case to the base of the bullet, add a bit more to get the compression that shoots best. That amount will be about 38 grs +/- a few. Don't forget to try Fg in small calibers.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #8 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 6:17pm	Print Post
	OOps, forgot to mention use a drop tube about 18" long. Longer will not help, it will just be more of a PIA

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Lefty38-55 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 366 Location: New England Joined: Sep 11^th, 2013	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #9 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 6:24pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester wrote on Oct 21^st, 2017 at 6:17pm: OOps, forgot to mention use a drop tube about 18" long. Longer will not help, it will just be more of a PIA Thank you! I just tried some Fg in my 60" barreled 75-cal, paper cartridge loads in the French manner, and she groups better w/ 1Fg than 2Fg. Maybe I'm also getting a more consistent burn, given the barrel length.
	« Last Edit: Oct 21^st, 2017 at 7:10pm by Lefty38-55 »
	All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups ...
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #10 - Oct 21^st, 2017 at 6:44pm	Print Post
	U R welcome. Bill Knight, the Mad Monk, explained all the burn rates affecting accuracy and barrel erosion many years ago. Wish I had those emails. They were lost in MickeySoft downgrades.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Old_No7 Full Member Offline Posts: 114 Location: Southern Maine Joined: Oct 30^th, 2007	Re: BP duplex for 38-55 using 4759 as smokeless? Reply #11 - Oct 28^th, 2017 at 10:14pm	Print Post
	Hey there Lefty: I can mail you my Lyman Blackpowder measure -- with drop tubes -- if it will help out. Righty (Lefty's identical twin brother -- from the other side of the egg...)

	"Freedom and the Second Amendment... One cannot exist without the other." © 2000 DTH&&
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