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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Does this count as a breech-loading single shot? (Read 7425 times)
Lefty38-55
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Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Sep 26th, 2017 at 11:16pm
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Perhaps off-topic here somewhat, but so unique I thought you'd enjoy seeing it.

My collection of single shot rifles grows ... and what an amazing & unique rifle this is! This is an original breech-loading flintlock, by John Hall of Maine, of patent date 1811. 

Mr. Hall was a famed machinist and inventor and patented the micrometer that we use today with the 40 tip thread that give us the units to 0.001". He also developed the standardized threads sizes and forms we use today, so a screw from his 1811 model fits into an 1841 model and vice versa.

John Hall should actually should get the credit for achieving truly interchangeable parts - not Eli Whitney - as besides inventing the rifle, he invented or created the tooling to make it. Once the 1st 100 rifles came off the assembly line at Harper's Ferry, VA, and passed their acceptance tests, they were disassembled, scattered into parts piles and then all 100 were rebuilt using different parts. All 100 also passed the acceptance tests.

This fires a 52-caliber (0.525") roundball, over a 90 or 100-grain 1Fg service load, with sometimes a buck & ball loads. The many '1sts' of this arm are amazing - but I'll add that info later.

Look at the bore collage - looks NEW! Best pictures I could take using the schmart phone. It should be in a museum ... 'mine' that is - but I shoot the toys in my museum collection! 

This is the last arm in the evolution of the flintlock arm.
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Redsetter
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #1 - Sep 26th, 2017 at 11:37pm
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This is the gun that should have revolutionized small arms production & infantry tactics, but didn't...for complex reasons, but chiefly, "too far ahead of its time."  What's almost as amazing as its condition is the fact that it escaped conversion to percussion, such as the one I had many many yrs ago.  

The detached breech mechanism was supposed to make an emergency "pocket pistol," but I never had the nerve to try it with mine.

Excellent scholarly discussion of why it failed to achieve its full potential is found in Merritt Smith's Harpers Ferry Armory.
  
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JS47
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #2 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 1:15am
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Lefty38-55,

This is the second or maybe third time this has happened on the forum. It's weird but last night I started re-reading my stack of old Rifle and Handloader magazines and in the issue #14, March and April of 1971 there is an article by Ken Waters titled "Mr. Hall of Harpers Ferry". If you are interested PM me and perhaps I can send you this highly valuable  Wink magazine.

JS
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #3 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:23am
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John Hall is credited with the invention of the milling cutter as we know it today. Before his time milling cutters were not much more than rotary files. He made them with bigger teeth and deeper gullets to remove more material. Then he had to design and build the more rigid machines to use the cutters. He was the 1st to achieve interchangeable manufacture in the US. Eli Whitney was an ambitious self promoter who never actually did what he claimed to have done.

Hall wasn't wanted in the Armory with his new-fangled ideas so they buit a shop for him on the banks of the Shenandoah river about 1/4 mile from the Armory on the Potomac side. After the Hall rifle was discontinued the 1841 rifle aka Mississippi Rifle was built in the rifle shop.
  
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bnice
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #4 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:25am
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Nice rifle, and thanks for the history lesson. Always enjoyable to hear more about the person.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #5 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:53am
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Yes
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #6 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:59am
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I have a good friend who collects mostly military ML rifles, and owns a couple nice Hall rifles. I was intrigued when he showed them to me and showed me how they worked. Always thought that it was the missing link between ML and breech loading cartridge guns, and that rather than discontinue it, they should have just improved on it.
  

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Lefty38-55
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #7 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 9:22am
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JS47 wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 1:15am:
If you are interested PM me and perhaps I can send you this highly valuable  Wink magazine.

JS - Thank you for the kind offer, but I already have that edition. Cheers!

Deadeye Bly wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:23am:
John Hall was the 1st to achieve interchangeable manufacture in the US. Eli Whitney was an ambitious self promoter who never actually did what he claimed to have done.

In the various books about Hall and his rifles, they suggest that it was also that the industrialists of that time did not want the "military industry" to get the credit for perfecting interchangeability of parts.

marlinguy wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 8:59am:
Always thought that it was the missing link between ML and breech loading cartridge guns, and that rather than discontinue it, they should have just improved on it.

The escaping gas at the breech was a HUGE concern. See those "side slots" on the action? Those were to allow gas to escape so that the stock didn't blow apart, which did happen. The slots were made longer & taller on the 2nd model.

It was the perfection of the brass-cased cartridge that really put the nail in the coffin on a breech-loader like this. I have a percussion model (original, not a convert) and the gap is almost 0.010". On this flint version, if I put a tiny oiece of computer printer paper into the action, it won't close, so my best guesstimate is that the fit is 0.004" or less. Not too bad considering it was made almost 200-years ago!

I will say ... you all are probably familiar with the gap at the barrel/forcing cone to cylinder on a modern revolver ... now try touching off a 90-grn BP charge in an action like the Halls use!
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Redsetter
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #8 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 11:23am
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Lefty38-55 wrote on Sep 27th, 2017 at 9:22am:
I will say ... you all are probably familiar with the gap at the barrel/forcing cone to cylinder on a modern revolver ... now try touching off a 90-grn BP charge in an action like the Halls use!


The problem that doomed Colt's revolving rifle.
  
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bisaacson
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #9 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 2:30pm
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The parts that didn't interchange on a Hall were the two bolsters that engage the ears of the breech block and are designed to be fitted so that the breech gap was kept within limits. If the gap got too large, before the stock would be damaged, hot gasses would flash back through the trigger slot and burn the top of the trigger finger - very unpleasant. Fit the bolsters properly and no problem.
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #10 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 4:15pm
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A phenomenal read of John Hall as a machinist and inventor, IMHO it is 'must' reading for anyone mechanically inclined.

Part 1 = (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Part 2 = (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Part 3 = (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Wrote one Dr. William Roberts: “Hall’s greatest achievement came when he machined parts to a tolerance of .001 inch, a feat never before accomplished. For this, he is widely credited for completing the foundation for the American Industrial Revolution.”

And a hearty, BIG thank you goes out to all you ASSRA members here that allow me to inform you with this info on an albeit 'early' black powdah single-shot rifle!
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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bnice
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #11 - Sep 27th, 2017 at 10:31pm
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Thanks Lefty, this is what many of us look forward to when we come to this forum.
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #12 - Sep 28th, 2017 at 7:55am
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Thanks for those links. I thoroughly enjoyed reading them.
  
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ron
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #13 - Sep 30th, 2017 at 8:34pm
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I watched the 3 part video this evening and enjoyed it completely. Does anyone know how or where to obtain a copy of the video?

ron
  
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desert-dude
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Re: Does this count as a breech-loading single shot?
Reply #14 - Oct 2nd, 2017 at 9:42pm
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Metal to metal seals for  containing high pressure gases are difficult. 
Hall may have been the first but certainly not the last to try this. 
I spent some time trying to modify a Starr so it didn't leak so much. 
Modern 'O' rings helped but didn't cure the problems. Perfectly executed
metal to metal seals work for amazingly high pressures but it takes really
good machining and metallurgy to make it work. 

  
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