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Pope False Muzzle. (Read 20144 times)

FITZ-G Junior Member Offline Posts: 79 Joined: Jun 4^th, 2015	Pope False Muzzle. Sep 20^th, 2017 at 9:02pm	Print Post
	Looking for Pope False Muzzle #21. This is a Hartford Pope in .33-40. This was from his early time when all he stamped was the False Muzzle itself, and sometimes the Barrel under the Fore End. None of his other Rifling fractions. This is a restoration effort. Have the complete Rifle, it would be good to recover the False Muzzle. Looking forward to hearing from some one who may have run across it. Regards, FITZ-G


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Crown-C Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 496 Location: St. Marys Kansas Joined: Apr 6^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #1 - Sep 20^th, 2017 at 9:49pm	Print Post
	Sorry FITZ-G, I have a Pope false muzzle #73 and no matching Pope rifle! Wish you the best with putting yours back together. Richard

	Richard Crown-C Ranch in the Flinthills NRA Life Member ASSRA Member # 10366 Member & Founders Society, Cody Firearms Museum Veteran
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Joe Do... Oldtimer ASSRA Board Member ASSRA Journal Editor Offline Posts: 594 Location: 'burbs of Chicago Joined: May 19^th, 2012	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #2 - Sep 21^st, 2017 at 7:23am	Print Post
	I don't mean to take away from FITZ's post but I am looking for false-muzzle No. 53. Hope you guys find your missing pieces. ... Joe


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #3 - Sep 21^st, 2017 at 8:55am	Print Post
	Looked at images of your gun in Warren Greatbatch's two volume Pope book. What a great looking gun!

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Tom_Trevor assra life no.71 Oldtimer Offline Tom Trevor Posts: 695 Location: Granada Hills Ca. Joined: Jun 16^th, 2004	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #4 - Sep 21^st, 2017 at 11:57am	Print Post
	Keep looking I found mine no. 690 on e-bay one day!
	« Last Edit: Sep 21^st, 2017 at 4:50pm by Tom_Trevor assra life no.71 »

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FITZ-G Junior Member Offline Posts: 79 Joined: Jun 4^th, 2015	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #5 - Sep 21^st, 2017 at 6:23pm	Print Post
	That's OK guy's. The more the merrier. If we get a lot of replies some one may find one he has been looking for and did not post it. The Rifle I am working on has had a strange history. But it has been owned by some serious shooters and Collectors. Would be nice to find the Muzzle. Lets jut keep it going. HTH Regards, FITZ-G.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #6 - Sep 21^st, 2017 at 8:30pm	Print Post
	My Pope is one of the rare ones that uses a Pope bullet starter directly on the barrel, with no false muzzle. It's a smaller version of my larger Pope bullet starter, and fits the barrel's OD very snugly. Here's a comparison picture for scale. Alongside is the aluminum starter from my Schoyen Ballard: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

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LRF Oldtimer Offline Posts: 612 Location: MN Joined: May 8^th, 2010	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #7 - Sep 23^rd, 2017 at 9:43am	Print Post
	Sorry Val, I am not familiar with your pope style of muzzle loading. Without a FM what aligns the bullet with the bore? Can you school me and maybe others on the procedure to ML the rifle?


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #8 - Sep 23^rd, 2017 at 11:02am	Print Post
	LRF wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2017 at 9:43am: Sorry Val, I am not familiar with your pope style of muzzle loading. Without a FM what aligns the bullet with the bore? Can you school me and maybe others on the procedure to ML the rifle? The starter on my .28/.32-40 Pope barrel has a recess inside the starter that the bullet slips into. So once the bullet is inserted into the starter, it can be fitted over the muzzle and pushed into the bore. It works very well from what I see, but since I haven't had the gun long, I haven't fired it yet. In Warren Greatbatch's book he quotes Claude Roderick who said he had not seen another Pope ML barrel that had a starter fitted directly to the barrel, and wasn't sure how this one worked, as he had not personally inspected the gun.

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LRF Oldtimer Offline Posts: 612 Location: MN Joined: May 8^th, 2010	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #9 - Sep 23^rd, 2017 at 11:21am	Print Post
	Vall, Thanks I suspected that may be how it works. I do have a ML 45 cal bullet rifle that I built a number of years back which is patterned after a english sporting rifle. The bullet is a 450 grain grease groove and I have a bullet started section that precisely aligns the bullet centered and perpendicular to the bore. Then a bullet starter similar to all you have seen, is a fixed to the bullet section and the bullet is pushed into the rifling. Works very well and the rifle is extremely accurate out to 200 yards. (which is the farthest distance I have tested it at) 3" 3 shot groups are achieved at that distance. Note: cleaning is required between shots to get that accuracy. However, it is a hunting rifle and the first shot which is always out of a clean bore is all that counts anyway. Thanks again


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CajunRebel Oldtimer Offline Posts: 692 Location: Alexandria, VA Joined: Nov 18^th, 2007	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #10 - Sep 24^th, 2017 at 5:59am	Print Post
	Excuse my ignorance... I understand how a breech loader consistently places the bullet ahead of the case 1/16"(?). How does a shooter place the bullet consistently, i.e., flush against the case, ramrod with a stop? Can smokeless powder 😱 be used for this discipline, e.g., to much velocity too soon? When fired, does the engraved bullet readily take the rifling? Most grateful...


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #11 - Sep 24^th, 2017 at 8:35am	Print Post
	The loading rod stops at the correct spot to place the base of the bullet at 1/16 of an inch from the end of the case. If you loose the rod or change to a different bullet Pope marked the barrel where the base of the bullet should come to. 40 Rod


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #12 - Sep 24^th, 2017 at 2:41pm	Print Post
	40_Rod wrote on Sep 24^th, 2017 at 8:35am: The loading rod stops at the correct spot to place the base of the bullet at 1/16 of an inch from the end of the case. If you loose the rod or change to a different bullet Pope marked the barrel where the base of the bullet should come to. 40 Rod Where did he usually put a Mark? I never noticed one on my Stevens Pope. My cases fit so well if I push them in too quickly, the compressed air will pop them back out a half to three quarters of an inch. I was always nervous about that compression pushing the bullet forward.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Tom_Trevor assra life no.71 Oldtimer Offline Tom Trevor Posts: 695 Location: Granada Hills Ca. Joined: Jun 16^th, 2004	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #13 - Sep 24^th, 2017 at 7:21pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmeister, Here are the Pope marks on my Pope Hi-wall. Note two marks or scratches as one is for thew 185 grain bullet and the other for the 200 grain. The rod has a bushing on the rod and if removed makes the rod short just enough for the 185 grain. Mark should be on right side even with the bullet base location. Hope this helps let us know if your barrel is so marked?


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #14 - Sep 24^th, 2017 at 8:49pm	Print Post
	Thank you Tom. Yes, there is a mark there on the Stevens Pope barrel, Ser number in the 560s I believe. Very faint, but with the light just right it is obvious. A Schoyen mold came with the rifle. No rod, so I had to make one up.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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FITZ-G Junior Member Offline Posts: 79 Joined: Jun 4^th, 2015	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #15 - Sep 29^th, 2017 at 9:26pm	Print Post
	Bump! what IS THIS?


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #16 - Oct 4^th, 2017 at 11:01pm	Print Post
	Bumping this back up for Fitz, so it might reappear!

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OLD TUCK Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 469 Location: Middleborough MA Joined: Oct 5^th, 2017	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #17 - Nov 4^th, 2017 at 8:24pm	Print Post
	Bump! Regards, FITZ.


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OLD TUCK Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 469 Location: Middleborough MA Joined: Oct 5^th, 2017	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #18 - Feb 18^th, 2018 at 8:20pm	Print Post
	Bump, just to try again. FITZ.


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #19 - Feb 19^th, 2018 at 11:50pm	Print Post
	Quote: Pope bullet starter directly on the barrel, with no false muzzle. Never heard of such and wonder why these types of starters are not made commercially? They look easy enough to be made based on various barrel dimensions and would be the cat's meow to replicate the normal false muzzle seating the bullet so there are no fins on the bullet bases


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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #20 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 3:04am	Print Post
	Quote: Quote: Pope bullet starter directly on the barrel, with no false muzzle. Never heard of such and wonder why these types of starters are not made commercially? They look easy enough to be made based on various barrel dimensions and would be the cat's meow to replicate the normal false muzzle seating the bullet so there are no fins on the bullet bases They are rifled with the barrel. Tough to add on.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #21 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 11:56am	Print Post
	Bob Z is correct it is pinned to the end of the barrel and reamed and rifled as one. That is why they are numbered to each rifle and all though one might come across one that fits it's doubt full the lands and grooves would then line up. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #22 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:24pm	Print Post
	I have Stevens-Pope 1740, I’ve been hoping for years that the false-muzzle would show-up. I made a bullet starter, but it’s not the same as having the real thing. 1740 is probably somewhere in Virginia. Ledball


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #23 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 12:53pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 3:04am: Quote: Quote: Pope bullet starter directly on the barrel, with no false muzzle. Never heard of such and wonder why these types of starters are not made commercially? They look easy enough to be made based on various barrel dimensions and would be the cat's meow to replicate the normal false muzzle seating the bullet so there are no fins on the bullet bases They are rifled with the barrel. Tough to add on. Bob, John Boy said "starter" not false muzzle. The starter could be made as it has no rifling. But they couldn't be commercially made starters, as the fit to a barrel needs to be very close. And octagon barrels would give further issues, as they'd need the last 3/8"-1/2" turned round to accept a bullet starter. I've seen numerous old muzzleloaders with octagon barrels turned round to accept a started without false muzzle right on the crown. My Pope is a full round barrel, so no issue with it's starter directly on the barrel. But the fit is so snug it wont shake off if I hold it upside down and try to shake it off.

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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #24 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 1:25pm	Print Post
	Val so far the subject has been on false muzzles but if one wanted to make just the starter itself that is very doable as the false muzzle is itself already turned round to accomodate it. But if one does not have the false muzzle making a starter is really all for naught as it also protects the crown from being compromised amoung other things by it's overall design. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #25 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 2:31pm	Print Post
	I reread that, Val, so he did. "replicate the normal false muzzle seating the bullet" not necessarily mass producing FM, just the seaters.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #26 - Feb 20^th, 2018 at 8:55pm	Print Post
	JLouis wrote on Feb 20^th, 2018 at 1:25pm: Val so far the subject has been on false muzzles but if one wanted to make just the starter itself that is very doable as the false muzzle is itself already turned round to accomodate it. But if one does not have the false muzzle making a starter is really all for naught as it also protects the crown from being compromised amoung other things by it's overall design. JLouis True John. But look at the hundreds of thousands of muzzleloaders that used starters without a false muzzle, or just ramrods without a false muzzle. It certainly isn't optimal, but if the starter fit snug then the chances of damaging the crown are certainly reduced vs. no starter to muzzleload. Somebody thought it was a feasible idea, or my Pope wouldn't be set up this way. My .28 Pope Special with starter on the barrel. Pope and Schoyen starters for use with false muzzles above it: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

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OLD TUCK Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 469 Location: Middleborough MA Joined: Oct 5^th, 2017	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #27 - Feb 27^th, 2018 at 10:38pm	Print Post
	I would spend some time measuring the Bore to the outside edge of the Octagon over the corner. If it is close you could make a Bullet Starter type Seater to Muzzle load. You just would need to make sure your Machining would guarantee that the bore of the starter and the Inside Diameter that fit over the Octagon were really concentric. The Diameter of the Bullet plunger would also need to be smaller than the Bore of the barrel to ensure that it would not hit the Rifling and cause Damage. This would not be a perfect Muzzle Loading system but I would think be quite adequate. But other than a little fun shooting with Black and experimenting. MUZZLE LOADING IN A LONG MATCH IS A PAIN IN THE A&&. Ask me how I know. HTH regards, FITZ. OLD TUCK.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16274 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #28 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 10:43am	Print Post
	I have two breech seating muzzleloading barrels Fitz, and they are indeed a PITA to shoot a lot using that method! One is a Schoyen in .38-55 and the other a Pope in .28 Special. Haven't shot the Pope much so far, but the Schoyen actually shoots breech seated and fixed ammo quite accurately. Surprising with the chamber lead it has, as I expected poor accuracy if not using it as a ML setup.

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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #29 - Feb 28^th, 2018 at 2:15pm	Print Post
	My Stevens-Pope has no lead, the case ends and the rifling starts. It shoots just fine BS.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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QuestionableMaynard8130 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4144 Location: Benton Harbor MI Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #30 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 9:21am	Print Post
	How long into the smokeless era did Pope continue to make the ML/BL loading rifles? It seems like we think of it as pre-engraving the bullet for a perfect fit. but breech seating the bullet into the lands as we do accomplishes the same thing. I've always wondered if the barrel fouling issue with BP and early semi-smokeless was the reason for the ML/BL system. Once the heavy shot to shot BP fouling was obviated by the development of true smokeless powders was the system phased out?

	sacred cows make the best burger
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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #31 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 9:41am	Print Post
	Wayne, the Pope ML/BS rifles went to a least #1740, I suspect to the very end around 2000. The ML became unpopular very quickly with the coming of better smokeless powders. Ledball


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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #32 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 9:51am	Print Post
	My Stevens-Pope 44/ 1/2 has a retractable firing pin, I’ve never seen or heard of this type of firing pin, it appears to be original. Anyone know about this type of firing pin, it operates by a cam under the firing pin. Ledball


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #33 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 12:35pm	Print Post
	Ledball is that the same rifle Charlie Dell picked up and if so he said it was the first of it's kind he had ever seen and if not it is only the second one that I have heard of being around. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #34 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 2:55pm	Print Post
	Yes, it’s the same rifle, I have not seen, heard, or read about another 44/ 1/2 Stevens rifle with a retractable firing pin. Ledball


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kootne Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 441 Location: Libby, Mt. Joined: Mar 6^th, 2012	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #35 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 5:54pm	Print Post
	ledball, In Roberts book, "The Breech-Loading Single Shot Rifle" pgs 80-81 Ned references having several and specifically a Stevens-Pope 44-1/2 .28-30 reworked by Albert Loetscher of Sibley, Ia. to have mechanically retracted firing pins installed. Maybe you rifle is one of those. Just guessin' Dennis

	You can't make good decisions without good information.
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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #36 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 6:14pm	Print Post
	Thanks, I’ll get the Roberts book out and read that chapter. Ledball


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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #37 - Mar 1^st, 2018 at 8:27pm	Print Post
	Roberts said he had been told that all the very last 44/ 1/2 actions were made with this retractable firing pin, if so where are they. Ledball


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cheatin_charlie Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 358 Location: ohio Joined: Jan 10^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #38 - Mar 2^nd, 2018 at 7:11am	Print Post
	I once owned a 25-20 standard range model 44 1/2 that had a retractable firing pin. I believe it to have been factory made. It is only one I have seen. I don't remember serial #. I think it was the first single shot that I ever bought.


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ledball Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1011 Location: syracuse, ohio Joined: Nov 20^th, 2009	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #39 - Mar 2^nd, 2018 at 10:06am	Print Post
	I suppose it’s possible to own one of these rifles for years and not know it had a retractable firing pin. Ledball


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OLD TUCK Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 469 Location: Middleborough MA Joined: Oct 5^th, 2017	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #40 - May 27^th, 2018 at 4:28pm	Print Post
	I was at Charlie Dell's match the year he broke that rifle out. It was in really nice shape. Showed a little usage damage, nothing bad mind you. But it's firing pin was broken. Had a really nice bore though. Charlie was I believe passing it on to one of the shooters there. Froggie might remember who got it. HTH Regards, FITZ. OLD TUCK.


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Bent_Ramrod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1467 Location: Southern Arizona Joined: Feb 8^th, 2006	Re: Pope False Muzzle. Reply #41 - May 28^th, 2018 at 10:27am	Print Post
	I have a #47 with the firing pin retractor in the breechblock. Not a common feature at all. I would have thought the Company would have patented this device, but I’ve never been able to find it in Google Patents.


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