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Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size (Read 5242 times)

John Boy Ex Member	Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Jul 14^th, 2017 at 4:16pm	Print Post
	For The Good of The Order - A container of smokeless powder does not have all the same grain size! Thanks to John Louis - Jim Borton and Charlie Dell, I poured a 1 lb container of smokeless into certified laboratory screens and measured the mesh size of the powder. Results: Alliant 300-MP, Lot 001Z031710 30 Mesh - 0.16% Hold 40 Mesh - 46.23% Hold 50 Mesh - 26.88% Hold 60 Mesh - 26.73% Hold 80 Mesh - Trace Total ....... 100% So based on an unknown factor, dependent on the brisance of a given primer and the caliber, the grain size variances will ignite unequally in a charged case. But I am presuming that a charge of the same mesh size shot through a chronograph will yield a smaller SD - ES and Velocity compared to a charge of mixed mesh size grains As with black powder, that I am familiar with, shooting charges with a close mesh size and the fines removed - Equals better groups


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Jeff_Schultz ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 1661 Location: Ransomville, NY Joined: Apr 25^th, 2004	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #1 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 4:22pm	Print Post
	Shocking! Please keep us posted on the target results.

	"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo “There is no situation so bad that it cannot be made worse." Confidence- The feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 3982 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #2 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 5:20pm	Print Post
	Shake the can before filling the measure to keep it mixed and let it all average out. Kinda like you did with your kaleidoscope when you were a kid.


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craigster Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Location: lost coast CA Joined: Feb 20^th, 2011	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #3 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 5:21pm	Print Post
	I gave up trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin a long time ago.


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #4 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 6:01pm	Print Post
	Interesting results John I ended up with two lots almost being equal the 40 and 50 screens. The top screen was around a cup full and lawn fertilizer not worth keeping and in the bottom pan about a tablespoon of mostly dust. This was out of 32lbs. done in two consecutive days of sifting and about 16 hours in total time spent of hand shaking the screens. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #5 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 6:17pm	Print Post
	I have only come across one powder that really isn't worth being sifted AA4100 the spheres are all about the same size / burn rate and really not worth trying to sift. If you can get it to shoot in your rifle I think it would be an excellent choice. I also tend to think that is also why it does so well in the small capacity cases but I have not had much luck with it in my 32-40 it prefered the 300MP by far and the sifted yet a little more so. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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CajunRebel Oldtimer Offline Posts: 694 Location: Alexandria, VA Joined: Nov 18^th, 2007	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #6 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 7:16pm	Print Post
	You guys already have me weighing, sorting, and measuring lead, brass, bullets, and primers. You tease us with choked barrel's, fruitless searches for 4759 powder, targets depicting unbelievable accuracy that BR shooters would envy. Now I should buy screens to filter smokeless powder? I'm on to you guys - Louis, Green Frog, Westerner, etc. It's those old timers doing it to us again. They weren't satisfied manipulating the black market on.32-40 brass. Now they have us sifting smokeless powder. They must be having a good laugh. Next thing they'll have us reloading 22rimfire with black powder... wha? Someone is already doing it? Nevermind


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #7 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 7:33pm	Print Post
	Please do not try and get caught up in everything mentioned here it's simply not for everyone and it is dependant on each one's own personal goals what ever they might be. In all honesty all though I have found sifting powder to be very advantages for my own use. One would be by far better served to spend the time out at the range trying to understand the various conditions presented and how to compensate for them. Once one gets past that milestone he can then notice any differance's sifting powder might or might not make. Over the past 16 years I have found several ways to make improvements for myself but none have come by not knowing how to read and compensate for the various conditions with full confidence coming first and foremost. Sifting powder goes all the way back to those old timers and not anything new to this day and age and it was by far more popular then than it is now. If they might be laughing it would be more due to not doing as they did and simply ignoring their own personal success by doing so. JLouis
	« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2017 at 7:48pm by JLouis »
	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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martin 1940D28 Participating Member Offline Posts: 40 Location: USA Joined: Mar 22^nd, 2010	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #8 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 7:43pm	Print Post
	After 55 years, I've found someone that agrees with me. M


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #9 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 7:50pm	Print Post
	About what Martin please be more specific and why you would feel that way? JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Online Posts: 3982 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #10 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 8:31pm	Print Post
	I just spent 10 minutes Googling sifted smokeless in various ways. Sure ain't mentioned in that much time. I don't think anybody serious does it more than once. Did find one dingus that was mixing Unique with black, though. Sounds like he'll load a bomb sooner or later.


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rgchristensen Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1189 Joined: Jan 2^nd, 2014	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #11 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 9:12pm	Print Post
	Now all the powder sifters can start wondering if the reason there is a big distribution in grain size is maybe because the mfr is blending batches to get a desired performance level.....gives one to think, don't it? CHRIS RGChristensen


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #12 - Jul 14^th, 2017 at 10:04pm	Print Post
	Quote: Next thing they'll have us reloading 22rimfire with black powder... wha? Someone is already doing it? Rebel - Yep. Been doing that too since 2011. Resolved that 4.5gr of Swiss Null-B dropped with a Lyman #5 is accurate for every charge. The reloads have a velocity of 980 fps. There are about 4 others in the States doing the same reloading of BP in 22LR brass Have modified the procedure some but here's how back in 2011 (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Can load a box of 50 in just under 30 minutes
	« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2017 at 10:14pm by »

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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3987 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #13 - Jul 15^th, 2017 at 8:41am	Print Post
	rgchristensen wrote on Jul 14^th, 2017 at 9:12pm: Now all the powder sifters can start wondering if the reason there is a big distribution in grain size is maybe because the mfr is blending batches to get a desired performance level.....gives one to think, don't it? CHRIS RGChristensen No wonder about it. That IS the way it is done. (I live within 15 miles of the RAAP (operated first by Hercules then ATK now BAE). Where they also make commercial powders in addition to the stuff for the military. The commercial powders are blended and blended and blended until they get it to match some criteria. (The military less, because the military adjusts the load to the powder - large batch.)

	Cat Whisperer (trk) Chief of Smoke Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army assra #9885
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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Smokeless Powder Is Not All the Same Grain Size Reply #14 - Jul 15^th, 2017 at 12:14pm	Print Post
	Charlie Dell's article, test results and correspondence with the powder manufacture on the subject including their concerns was published in the ASSRA's Single Shot Rifle Journal. I will dig through my pile to try and find which Vol. Months and Year it was published for those who might like to read it. If someone here has that article I would appreciate it if they would also do the same. If memory serves me right Charlie was testing sifted AA-7 and did so using his machine rest and covered 100yd. test range and his results were indeed very impressive and his article well worth reading. JLouis
	« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2017 at 12:21pm by JLouis »
	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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