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JS47
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38-55 Duplex
Jul 12th, 2017 at 10:40pm
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Would 5 gr. Unique and a case full of FF black powder be a reasonable duplex load for a breach seated 260 gr. bullet?

Thanks
JS
  
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RSW
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #1 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 12:12am
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JS47
Not ever having used Unique for duplex, I can not directly answer your question. I have however, had excellent results with both 4.7 grains of IMR 4227 or 4.7 grains SR 4759 and the remainder of the case nearly full of 1.5 Fg or 1 Fg Swiss black powder. I trickle the Swiss through a 24 inch drop tube, leaving the case just short of being full, by the thickness of my over powder wad. A card wad that is a snug fit in the case mouth of approximately .025 works well. I have found that compressing duplex loads does not increase accuracy and have experienced some nasty pressure peaks compressing Olde Eynsford duplex loads. Straight Olde Eynsford powder produces good accuracy but don't duplex it.
I have had good accuracy leaving a 1/16 inch gap between the case mouth and the bullet base. I have also had good accuracy with the same rifle by filling that gap with a dry felt wad. When the humidity is high, just about any combination is accurate. When humidity is low, things get flaky. Powder, wad combinations, bullet lube, cleaning regimen, all become critical for good accuracy. In low humidity, you really learn a lot about what it takes to make a rifle shoot well with black and duplex.
Duplex definitely shoots cleaner than straight black but is not any more, nor any less, accurate at 100-200 yards. Shooting off my double rest at 200 yards, on good days, I have shot a bunch of 1 minute of angle (plus/minus .1 inch), 10-shot groups with both duplex and straight black. Generally, range conditions are less than ideal and I feel good when my 10-shot groups run 1.5 MOA.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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JS47
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #2 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 1:40am
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RSW,

Thanks for the detailed answer. I'll give 4227 a try. I don't have any of the powders you mentioned but I do have some '70's vintage GOEX and a friend recently came into enough of it from an estate to keep us shooting for a good long time, hence my question. Humidity is not a problem here, I have lots of it. Once in awhile it gets down to 50%, usually 60-85%. I have a CPA with a BRC barrel and a good fitting bullet that shoots well under an MOA with 4227 so it will be interesting to see how well I can make it shoot with black.

JS
  
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #3 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 10:51am
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JS
As long as the powder has been stored dry, your old GOEX should work. When using powder that old, I suggest you pour out a small quantity of it on a plain sheet of paper. Spread it out with a finger and look at it closely to see if it  has a much in the way of powder dust (fines). Those fines cause ignition inconsistency which will frustrate your accuracy goals.
If your GOEX has fines, PM me and I'll tell you how to sift out the fines.
For the first couple of loadings, bulk measure of your powder is fine. Once your cases are well fire-formed to your chamber, I recommend you weigh your powder charges, both smokeless and black.
If you want to shoot duplex because it's fun, it is, you will have enjoyable times. If you want to shoot duplex and make nice small groups, it's as much work as any other bench rest shooting discipline. It's still fun, IMO, but a lot of effort.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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frnkeore
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #4 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 11:38am
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In the 80's and 90's, I shot a lot of duplex, BP loads, using the only thing available, at that time, GOEX.

My standard load was 15% 4759. 15% because that is what ASSRA specified in their LR rules. I never tried 4227 but, the burn rate is very, very close to 4759 and 8 gr would be 15% for the 38/55. 15% is very safe in a 32/40 & 32/35, I've used it in my 32/40, 44 Stevens with 185 gr bullets. 

For all my BP shooting and testing (SS & slug guns), I found Rem 1 1/2 (30 American cases for SS and only 1 1/2's for slug guns) and Rem 2 1/2 primers to give the best accuracy. 4227 isn't primer sensitive so, if you can get Rem primers, make sure you try them. F150's where second in accuracy.

I always used FG GOEX, finding it more accurate than FFG because it had less "fines" and if you only have FFG, I would sieve it, as Randy suggests, for best accuracy. I only tried sieving once and made such a mess, I never tried it again. Sieving also has it's dangers that I'm sure Randy will address.

I never weighed my charges, just threw them from the bench but, was able to win matches and set records, in thoughs days.

For lube, I used Darr, Emmert and my own (even amount of BW, Parafin, crisco & vasaline). My lube worked best in my testing but, a friend used Darr with great success. I capped the case off with a LDP wad and all my shooting was BSed.

Frank
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #5 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 12:16pm
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Many years ago, probably at least 40, the American Rifleman had an article about the hazards of duplexing over 30%.  As I  recall the Canadian target rifle rules were close to the line.  Most US rules were in the 10% range.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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John Boy
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #6 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 2:09pm
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Most reloaders don't have certified mesh screens to sieve out their powder fines in a can of powder.  Instead, the old gunsmith way to separate fines in BP - "is socking it":
* Long cotton athletic or hunting sock
* Pour the can of powder into the sock and roll the top closed
* Grab the top and botton of the sock and rock it back and forth about a dozen times
... the fines stick into the cotton
Pour the powder back into the can and mark it "SOCKED"

And sock the powder outdoors - otherwise when you blow your nose into your handkerchief, it will look like you have been working in a coal mine  Grin

Goex is notorious for having fines (60-80 mesh).  I sock every can of Goex.  In addition, if you are a muzzle loader shooter, save the fines.  Makes excellent flint lock pan powder
  
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bpjack
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #7 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 6:58pm
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John Boy,

Ever light a match to one of the socks after emptying it?  I would be way too tempted!

Jack
  

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JLouis
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #8 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 8:39pm
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Not related to BP but proper sifting of smokless powder has proven to be very beneficial to me having now used 32 pounds of sifted 300MP. Its alot of time consuming work and it might not be worth the efforts for most and the proper screens are not cheap. But the increased consistent burn rate could be worth a point or two for the serious competitior when coupled with the correct primer. 

JLouis
  

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John Boy
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #9 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 9:25pm
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I have never sifted smokeless powder but what J Louis posted is absolutely true, the same with black powder. I bought a complete set of certified laboratory sieve screens from 10 to 80 mesh and all of the several brands and grades of BP have been screened that are inventory
Example, Goex Cartridge untouched in the cans has a close FFg sieve mesh ratio.  I shoot alot of it and got decent groups out to 1000 but one day decide to sock it.  Instead of the normal 45-70 charge, I dropped 2 grains.  On a 1000yd target, I had 7 out of 10 rounds in the 10 circle and center hits. Made me a believe believer socking and screening powder.  Was so enthused with the Goex CTG accuracy, when I heard it was to be discontinued - bought every can of it in my retailer's trailer
John, thanks for the advice about screening smokeless to increase accuracy too.  Thought never entered in my mind screening smokeless.  I'll screen the 5 lbs of 300-MP plus the 16 lbs of ETR7 that I use for several caliber
  
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JLouis
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #10 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 9:45pm
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You are very welcome John. I have keep it as a highly regarded secret for my own personal use and it was time to let the Cat out of the bag. It was first shared to me by Jim Borton and then Charlie Dell and not really a secret to those who have read Charlie's article in the ASSRA Journal and then reviewed his results. I don't won't anyone to think it as being miraculous as shooter ability also comes into to play and a point or two is still very difficult to come by even when using it. But they are there for the taking if one knows how to take full advantage of it.

JLouis
  

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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #11 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 9:26pm
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John, Where do you get your screens?
  

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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #12 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:00pm
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Looks like this dropped out of sight.  Will this post bring it back?  Undecided
  

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JS47
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Re: 38-55 Duplex
Reply #13 - Jul 17th, 2017 at 8:33pm
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Thanks to all for the feedback. I seem to have gotten side tracked lately working on loads for my 45-70. So many loads, so little time! When I get back to the 38-55 I'll let you know how it goes, for better or worse.

JS
  
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